DIY: Stepper Motor & Input Sensor

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tompocz
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Post by tompocz »

mr-charisma

Thanks for that mate - knew about it though and bookmarked it.

Ive been trolling all the sites, ftowa, ireland, there is a mistubishi forum, the ftooc (awaiting approval on my joining from admin, and especially this one.

I find this one more to my likeing in the sense that people are genuine and passionate about not just their fto, but in helping.

cheers
Tom
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Post by mr-charisma »

Oh yeah & if you haven't already I would be checking the Torque Converter - might be buggered .. at last check Joe & Ricks reco'd one for $300 but don't quote me on that ;)
Send a PM to Ethix - he had it done

Theres also a few more links you could check out;

http://www.mitsubishi-forums.com/t32900 ... ashing.htm
NR Autosport
30-11-2002, 22:52
Zentac
I spoke to you @ Trax and you were having g/box oil problems and the N light flashing on your FTO did you get it sorted? I see the VR4 thing is taking longer than you said?:rolleyes:
zentac
01-12-2002, 08:04
Yeah, I eventually got it sorted. It turned out to be one of the sensors on top of the gearbox was faulty. A real bitch to track down.

Hope some of that helps..
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Post by mr-charisma »

tompocz wrote:mr-charisma

Thanks for that mate - knew about it though and bookmarked it.

Ive been trolling all the sites, ftowa, ireland, there is a mistubishi forum, the ftooc (awaiting approval on my joining from admin, and especially this one.

I find this one more to my likeing in the sense that people are genuine and passionate about not just their fto, but in helping.

cheers
Tom
Aye, looks like you're on the ball..

Are you doing all of the work yourself then? Would be costing you a fortune other wise.. no doubt it all comes down to the simplest & most obscure bit of wiring or something .. 'tis always the way..

I think Bennoz has a membership to the FTOOC site.. I bet if you ask nice he might be able to trawl those forums for you - they're a treasure trove of useful info ;) You may even be able to use www.archive.org to view older pages before they blocked it off to the general public.. might not have all the search features working though..
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Post by tompocz »

I got an email from a "Vanessa" at the FTOOC - she is looking into it as to why my membership was not activated there. They hold concerns of spammers and I assured her I wasnt one.

Ive thought about the TC being on the blink as well, god forbid, but will replace the input shaft sensor first. My logic is such, that most components on this car are original, and if they dont fail now, they will at the most inopportune time. I would rather spend $200 bucks on a sensor than have my wife groaning at me !! :-)

Will keep u all advised, and to some degree am enjoying my investigation, albeit Ill be happy when its resolved, and so that the missus is happy as well.

Cheers
Tom
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Post by mr-charisma »

Might as well replace all the cheap stuff first .. I'd be kicking myself if I replaced a bunch of expensive parts & the solution ended up being a $10 sensor or something ..
I appreciate your logic, but can't say I share it :( sadly my view for most things is if it ain't broke, don't fix it .. I figure that new parts can die just as easily .. especially if I stuff up & install them wrong :lol:
obviously theres certain things that it doesn't apply to .. timing belt etc.. :P
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Post by I8A4RE »

tompocz wrote:I got an email from a "Vanessa" at the FTOOC - she is looking into it as to why my membership was not activated there. They hold concerns of spammers and I assured her I wasnt one.

Ive thought about the TC being on the blink as well, god forbid, but will replace the input shaft sensor first. My logic is such, that most components on this car are original, and if they dont fail now, they will at the most inopportune time. I would rather spend $200 bucks on a sensor than have my wife groaning at me !! :-)

Will keep you all advised, and to some degree am enjoying my investigation, albeit Ill be happy when its resolved, and so that the missus is happy as well.

Cheers
Tom
Good work mate, i just ask one thing of you and that is, you do post up your solutions etc. It does help others who have the same problem as im sure you are quite aware. How frustrating is it when finding a thread about a similar problem only to get to the bottom of it and there is no solution :x . Anyway good luck, you definitly have a good attitude about what your doing and we will be here to help as much as possible.
Simon
CHRISTIANITY: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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Post by tompocz »

@mr Charisma - nice handle :-)


I unfortunately do not hold the luxury of obtaining a spare input shaft sensor, as FTO's in Adelaide appear to be a rarity, and wreckers would slug you close to the cost of an original part. I do however try and dicsount issues and symptoms as much as possible before I lay out the cash, hence my anal attitude towards research and asking questions. I to concur this attitude can be risky towards spending monies unecessarily, but fear that at present I have no alternative.

You mentioned the following
01-12-2002, 08:04
Yeah, I eventually got it sorted. It turned out to be one of the sensors on top of the gearbox was faulty. A real bitch to track down.
I believe this to be the input shaft speed sensor.

@Simon

Do I post my solutions ? - the answer is a HUGE yes, given two reasons,

1. I believe in reciprocating as this site has assisted me
2. I believe this thread speaks for itself in having a running commentary of my activities and results.

I was lucky enough to find a thread on the FTOOC site regarding input shaft sensors, and it had some interesting photos on how to disasemble it. The biggest issue in problem resolution that I have read is the lack of photos in some DIY's that I have come across when trying to describe a problem and its subsequent solution. I endeavour not to make the same mistake.

I am very concious in checking and verifying everything I do, given that the FTO is a sensitive beast at times, and I do not wish to make extra work for myself when trying to investigate and resolve a mechanical problem. This attitude also hopefully saves me money as well.

The following link is to a zip file which holds info from the FTOOC site regarding input shaft speed sensor - I downloaded it a long time ago (27/05/2007) as I found it interesting - quite a coincidence !! :-)

http://www.fishsa.com/FTO-PARTS/Input-Shaft-Sensor.zip

File size is 793KB - was unable to post here hence the link.

I also find that by downloading such pages and saving them on my local hard drive helps where by such photographical instructions are lost if referenced from a web site - a classic example of such an occurance is a DIY in this board, the DIY: Cold Air Box Stage 1 & 2 from dstocks - the photos are missing, as these photos reference a dir "http://www.completefto.com.au/fto_images/temp/" that no longer exists.

I would have found this article interesting given my current dilemma.

Anyway, enough rambling on, will see how the car starts this morning and report back.

I am in the process of awaiting a quote for the input shaft sensor, and will also provide detailed instructions and photos to my endeavours.

Cheers
Tom
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Post by Bennoz »

mr-charisma wrote:
tompocz wrote:mr-charisma

Thanks for that mate - knew about it though and bookmarked it.

Ive been trolling all the sites, ftowa, ireland, there is a mistubishi forum, the ftooc (awaiting approval on my joining from admin, and especially this one.

I find this one more to my likeing in the sense that people are genuine and passionate about not just their fto, but in helping.

cheers
Tom
Aye, looks like you're on the ball..

Are you doing all of the work yourself then? Would be costing you a fortune other wise.. no doubt it all comes down to the simplest & most obscure bit of wiring or something .. 'tis always the way..

I think Bennoz has a membership to the FTOOC site.. I bet if you ask nice he might be able to trawl those forums for you - they're a treasure trove of useful info ;) You may even be able to use www.archive.org to view older pages before they blocked it off to the general public.. might not have all the search features working though..
Aye, I do. I know the admin staff too if you need any help fast tracking it. Vanessa (Jinksy) is pretty good thou, she'll get it sorted.
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Post by tompocz »

Unfortunately it was no go this morn, and the car sounded rough, even when warmed up. The heater played havoc with the revs, and the missus is yet again "not happy Jan" !! :-(

I have decided now to attack this prob from a different angle. I was thinking that the RPM's were correct due to adjusting the idle mixture, but asked myself what if I adjusted the accelerator (there by increasing the revs) and then compensating this increase in revs by adjusting the idle screw - this would make the mixture leaner and would hopefully stop the stuttering and petrol smell.

Further investigation was required.

I identified the screw that I mentioned in a previous post I made in this thread - its called the SAS screw or "speed adjusting screw". I mistakingly played with it, with problematic consequences.

Image

Found some info in the workshop manual (pages 13A-80 to 13A-81) referencing its adjustment if disturbed from factory settings.

It makes reference to the following and I quote
If the adjustment has been changed by mistake,the idle speed may become too high or the idle speed may drop too low when loads from components such as the A/C are placed on the engine.
This is exactly the problem I am having at present with idling.

Image

The above makes reference (point 6) to Group 13B.

As part of this adjustment, a check may be required of the accelerator cable and pedal, as described from Group 13B

Image
Image

I now have a plan for tonight. Will let you know how I go - fingers crossed !! :-)

Cheers
Tom
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Post by I8A4RE »

:lol: I was not doubting that you would put up your results merely just reminding
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Post by Storm »

Lots of info there Tom!

regarding the Gearbox, did you ever get any error codes from it as if it has went into limp home mode then it should have stored the codes.

Bill
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Post by tompocz »

Storm wrote:Lots of info there Tom!

regarding the Gearbox, did you ever get any error codes from it as if it has went into limp home mode then it should have stored the codes.

Bill
Ive seen mention of codes for the trans, but really dont know whats involved as to diagnose this ........ yet.

The only test Ive done is the ECU test with wiring pin 1 to earth and switching the ignition on to get the alerts via the "Flashing N" symbol.

As to this test, no "flashes" were evident.

Cheers
Tom
Last edited by tompocz on Sat May 10, 2008 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by tompocz »

Update ..........

Work on the missus's car tonight and did the following

1. placed injector fluid cleaner into petrol tank and filled car up with 98octane
2. Checked stepper motor and adjusted SAS screw as per previous post.
3. spent numerous hours playing with idle screw and listenned to revs when motor running with/without load (heater running on/off)
4. Disconnected battery for 1 hour and when reconnected, let idle for 20 minutes.
5. Checked all fluids (Oil/Trans) and all was well.
6. took car for a drive for about 15km doing 110km/hr and all appeared fine.

Final conclusion - car is purring like a kitten.
Final outcome - will start it tomorrow morn when its cold.

While working on the car, I took the opportunity to disconnect the stepper motor so as to show you how it all looks like.

Image

Once disconected, it generally shows you carbon deposits. This photo is one taken where by I cleaned it with WD40.

Image

One thing to consider is that if using any cleaner, they tend to swell any gromet or O-ring. Be wary of taking out and then inserting the stepper motor, given that if the O-ring pops out, you need 7 fingers and 3 hands to get it back in.

Image

Suffice to say, it takes a special breed of person to work on an FTO, late at night, with the degree of passion in trying to reach mechanical perfection. :-)

Image

On a final note, I have to say that doing the test runs tonight was a HUGE buzz for me. I didnt even notice how easy it was to actually reach 140km/hr with my ear out the window listenning to the exhaust - the car handled so tight and well.

I can only hope that it starts well tomorrow morning, as the missus has to do the food shopping. If not, she's driving my 4WD - without the fishing rod holders - custom job !! :-)

Image

Cheers
Tom
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Post by I8A4RE »

Good luck mate, as for the error codes its the same process for both to get the error codes from either ECU. However the engine check light will flash for the ECU and the N will flash for the tip codes. Im not sure if you already new that but at least its there for others
CHRISTIANITY: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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Post by tompocz »

Thanks I8A4RE for that. Unfortunately, the motor start lousy this morn but after a few seconds she came good and idled okay. However when the fan cut as soon as I turned the heater on she stuttered, and she seemes slugginsh when tryin to accelerate.

Just got off the phone with the missus (who took it shopping) and she said it was a bit slugginsh and she heard a "clunk" but thought it might be a stone !! I really need to be with her when she drives as her interpretations are confusing at best of times !!

Oh well, will continue to nut it out.

Thanks
Tom
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Post by Ther »

would love to see what the issue is as i had similar problems. Car just decided to drop revs and just stop. I cleaned the throttle body and the stepper motor and so far so good.
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Post by tompocz »

Okay - another session with the FTO trying to resolve this idling prob.

I now suspect its either the O2 sensor (Lamda ??), the Cat, or the TPS.

I was to also do a thorough investigatin in looking at wires to see if they are frayed or broken. Upon such investigation, I found a leak, which was coming from the overflow pipe to the radiator bottle.

What I had
Image

What I've got now
Image
Image

On another note, Im trying to test/check my TPS. The following docs is from the FTOOC site, and is slightly contrary to the Workshop manual, as it makes no mention of having to turn the ignition on (not start the car) while testing the TPS.


[quote]
For cars without Traction Control

Place the thickness gauge between the fixed SAS, the speed adjustment screw on the bulkhead side of the throttle body, and the throttle lever so the throttle is very slightly opened. Then push the pins through the two wires on the engine side of the TPS and attach to a digital OHMeter. These are wires 1 & 2 and are the actual “switchâ€
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Post by tompocz »

Continuing with my idling problem, I was working and having a look at the Oxygen Sensor today so as to see what's involved in replacing it, and also check its condition.

Found a great explanation as to why we need one and I quote
The lambda sensor is a galvanic cell (basically a battery) with oxygen atoms acting as the electrolyte. The snag is that it doesn't function at temperatures below about 280 deg.C. - so to get it working straight after you start the engine they fit it with a heater. As soon as you turn the ignition on it starts to heat up.
The is why you need heater wires to the sensor to heat it up. I found a really good article talking about Lamda Sensors at http://www.answers.com/topic/oxygen-sen ... technology .

Testing the sensor can also be achieved by reviewing the following quote
Anyway you can check your Lambda sensor ...

If you have a digital multimeter you can check its voltage output
Once its warmed up its output voltage swings between about 0.2 - 0.8 volts
If it sits on 0v or up at 5v then its not switching and is faulty

Only use a digital multimeter to check this as an analog one could damage the sensor
The plug/socket for the lambda sensor is behind the centre console at the floor
As to the wire translation, the following quote applies
The plug on the fto side is

Red - Heater
Black - Heater
White - Signal
Black - Ground.....These are the wires that run from the fto loom to the lambda plug.

But once it plugs into the lambda the colours are as follows

Black - Heater
Black - Heater
Blue - Signal
White - Ground.....Just to clarify,these are the wires that run from the fto plug to the sensor itself.
In my daily life, I always practice the art of "Trust but Verify", and I am always concious of Murphy's as well as O'Brien's Law (Murhpy - if something can go wrong it usually will, O'Brien - Murpghy was an Optimist) . To verify the above, given that wiring numbers are not given in the above quote as confusion could exist in wiring the "wrong" black wire from the FTO Loom to the new sensor, I spent some time looking at the wiring diagram for the oxygen sensor and I can see that the following applies

Wire 1 is White - Signal
Wire 2 is Black - Ground
Wire 3 is Red - Heater
Wire 4 is Black - Heater

The following diagram shows how I was able to ascertain which colour wire is which. The alphabetic characters denote the colour, where as the digits denote the wire number. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Image

The following legend applies to the above diagram

Image is the symbol for a heater. Given that two wires or connections are made to this, its safe to assume that wires 3 and 4 are the heater wires from the FTO Loom.

Image indicates body earth point. hence this wire is ground.

Image denotes a fixed resistor. This is Signal.

See http://www.talkingelectronics.com/CctSy ... mbols.html for more info - very usefull in confirming symbols. You will note that from this site, the Heater symbol is similiar to a "Non-Inductive Resistor", but if you look closely, the images are mirrored.

The workshop manual shows the following diagram of where the oxygen sensor sits. I notcied that there is a torque setting for the sensor as well. Glad I bought myself a torque wrench many moons ago :-)

Image

Looking down the length of the car from the front, you can see the sensor wires from the exhaust pipe into the floor.

Image

Another view of the placement of the sensor, wire and gromet. The gromet was quite easy to remove, using a flat-end screw driver.

Image

With the gromet removed and the cable out, it was quite easy to unclip the wire, which was unusual. Most plugs that Ive worked on recently took me 3-4 minutes to figure out how they unclipped.

Image

The sensor itself shows that it has 4 wires.

Image

The sensor itself had the only markings of ND 065500-09820 11P hence I'm unable to ascertain its make or origin.

Image

With the sensor plugged back in, you can plainly see the wire relationship on my sensor. Given the above, I suspect something is wrong, as the colours dont match up.

Image

I have purchased a universal sensor (still awaiting delviery) from Australian ebay ( as per dstock's suggestion - onya !! :-) )

Ebay Link Here

The following was taken from http://www.lambdasensor.com/main/mindex.htm . As can be seen, the wires show that the FTO sensor corresponds to the wire colours of a Toyota sensor.

Image

Image

As to the TCL question in my previous post, I think I have answered it with the following diagram

Image

I do not have such a switch, hence I don't have TCL.

As to my previous post in this thread, can anyone answere the questions relating to TPS please.

It can be seen Im trying to do as much as I can in resolving my idling issue, and at the same time providing you with descriptive info from my investigations. Any positive and more importantly accurate feedback would be greatly welcomed.

Thanks
Tom
Last edited by tompocz on Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by I8A4RE »

Yeah i did a DIY on replacing it, but thats some good info on checking to dee if tis faulty

Heres my diy
http://www.ftoaustralia.com/modules.php ... ic&t=13136

It may of helped you but not now :lol:
CHRISTIANITY: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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Post by tompocz »

I8A4RE wrote:Yeah i did a DIY on replacing it, but thats some good info on checking to dee if tis faulty

Heres my diy
http://www.ftoaustralia.com/modules.php ... ic&t=13136

It may of helped you but not now :lol:
GDay I8A4RE

If anything your DIY gave me an initial insight into what to expect when working on such things. The last thing I want is to do something on the FTO and not knowing what Im doing, and break a critical plug or connector. hence your DIY was definitely of value.

I unfortunately am extremely anal (not banal :lol: ) in my views and documentation - comes from going to Uni, doing a Thesis and working in ICT !! LOL :-)

As always, I look out for your replies as well, as you seem to know what you are doing and also appear to have had the challenges Im currently experiencing.

I can sense you love your FTO as much as I do my wife's :-)

Do you have any comments on my TPS questions in my previous posts ?? Have not had any feedback on this issue - waiting with the greatest of anticipation !! :lol:

Onya
Tom
Last edited by tompocz on Sun May 18, 2008 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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