6x9's

harry90 · Post by **harry90** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:41 pm

okay.. i have -pioneer head deck DEH-P4850MP
- pioneer 800w amp
- Pioneer 12' sub
it sounds alright with the setup and i get a lot of bass !!! But i just feel that im not getting the most out of the speakers in the car... its literally just my sub and the rear speakers with the tunes... nothing else really stands out. i dont want to spend $1000's of dollars... i dont really want to spend that much..i just want some decent splits ( i first thought 6x9's... but everyone here has convinced me that the sub does the job that the 6x9's are meant to and the setup wont be great) so that the music sounds better...probably max $200 i would spend (not including amp)

i hate rattling from my car as well... this has been so obivous since i got my sub... but what i also dont get is that with some songs there is no rattling and the bass is perfect (always the same songs) and with others there is more rattling then bass... any ideas ?

mr-charisma · Post by **mr-charisma** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:19 pm

+1 sam

Though I'd still never spend even nearly that much on my front speakers

hehe

For a SQ install rear is for fill.. For CD Audio I agree, you generally want most of your noise up front with only a bit of 'fill' at the rear
Since CD Audio is recorded in Stereo - only 2 speakers, front left & front right, low bass frequencies should be passed to the sub anyway, if only to improve the life of your front speakers. For listening to CD Audio, you want to be able to hear the music as if the band is playing right in front of you .. however .. I just don't feel right with all the noise blasting at my face .. even at live gigs they've got the accoustic thing happening - sound bounces off walls, diffused by people etc & a decent portion of it sounds like its coming from behind unless you're standing right in front of the speakers .. which is kind've what its like being so close to your speakers in your car..

Too much noise coming from the rears though & its going to sound a bit fucked.. as I said, with the way CD Audio is made, it's only designed to be played through your 2 front speakers, so if you're fading it back to your rear speakers its not going to be true "surround sound"
Fading more sound to the back is just going to reduce the volume of the fronts & vice versa .. then you run into other problems as well, but not worth going into as long as you tune it to how you like to hear it it should be fine.

True surround sound is recorded to be played on more than 2 speakers - the sound for the front left , front right, rear left, rear right speakers are created seperately & then compiled together into the Audio track..

These days a lot of people go for DVD Head Units etc .. & want to watch movies in their cars or whatever & I think that at least for this reason, its good to have some noise from the back as well.. definitely nothing fancy though, just some el' cheapo speakers

As Sam said - getting 6x9's you're sacrificing sound quality for bass. But with 6x9's with a sub you should run a filter on them to block bass noise anyway. So then they pretty much become next to useless - 6.5" speakers pump out nearly as much bass as 6x9's anyway, but with much clearer mid tones..

As I said before, 'tis all about what sounds good to you .. go to some Car Audio stores, listen to the speakers on the wall, sit in their demo cars & see what they sound like when they're installed.. get them to fade the speakers from front to back & see what you like first

mr-charisma · Post by **mr-charisma** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:30 pm

harry90 wrote: i hate rattling from my car as well... this has been so obivous since i got my sub... but what i also dont get is that with some songs there is no rattling and the bass is perfect (always the same songs) and with others there is more rattling then bass... any ideas ?

Run a search o nthe forums for any or all of the following
"sound deadening", "dynamat", "stinger Roadkill", "clark Rubber", "closed cell foam"

Theres been a few posts lately about sound deadening .. again, it can be fairly expensive / difficult to get rid of all rattles in your FTO, just have to target 1 area at a time until you get everything..

Sounds like you only need to get some decent front speakers & 4 ch amp
It will cost more than $200 though.

harry90 · Post by **harry90** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:33 pm

also ... could the noise be coming from the rubber pieces near the windows ? my driver side rubber piece which is on the inside/outside frame is falling loose in one place and is starting to annoy me... would u recomend to stick back into place ? or get new rubber and replace ? i dont think it will make much difference buying new ones or glueing it back onto the frame... but if anyone can suggest why i should get a new one i will take it into consideration !!!
and will do (go to car audio and listen to their speakers and see which is what i prefer)

Post by **I8A4RE** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:21 pm

Sorry sam & mr charisma, i disagree with you on the fact that 6x9 are "only fill" and instead of getting into a war or writing an essay about im just gonna say

mr-charisma · Post by **mr-charisma** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:33 pm

I8AFRE wrote:Sorry sam & mr charisma, i disagree with you on the fact that 6x9 are "only fill" and instead of getting into a war or writing an essay about im just gonna say

Fair enough

I still disagree that 6x9's should ever be used in a car audio install .. so i'm just gonna say

mr-charisma · Post by **mr-charisma** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:35 pm

harry90 wrote:also ... could the noise be coming from the rubber pieces near the windows ? my driver side rubber piece which is on the inside/outside frame is falling loose in one place and is starting to annoy me... would u recomend to stick back into place ? or get new rubber and replace ? i dont think it will make much difference buying new ones or glueing it back onto the frame... but if anyone can suggest why i should get a new one i will take it into consideration !!!
and will do (go to car audio and listen to their speakers and see which is what i prefer)

the noise could be coming from anything .. theres rattles all over the place in the ol' FTO's .. send DStocks a message about the part you need, he might have one in stock..

Post by **I8A4RE** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:27 pm

mr-charisma wrote:
I8AFRE wrote:Sorry sam & mr charisma, i disagree with you on the fact that 6x9 are "only fill" and instead of getting into a war or writing an essay about im just gonna say

Fair enough I still disagree that 6x9's should ever be used in a car audio install .. so i'm just gonna say

Yeah must be all those years of working in the car audio industry eh

harry90 · Post by **harry90** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:48 pm

lol... the pic of that curry dude... HILARIOUS !!!

harry90 · Post by **harry90** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:24 pm

alright...so i went to strathfield today...i walked into the shop asked what i was looking for (obviously didnt seem too convincing to the person) he asked to listen to what i have now... so drove into the workshop and we told me it sounds great as it is with the stocks...i was like

...so he adjusted some of the settings on the head deck...and said its good as it is....was very awkward as i never thought they would refuse a customer wanting something?!?! so yea...i kinda felt ..let down ? but also a compliment is a compliment..so i dunno what to say...lol

TCGPX · Post by **TCGPX** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:54 pm

harry90 wrote:i hate rattling from my car as well... this has been so obivous since i got my sub... but what i also dont get is that with some songs there is no rattling and the bass is perfect (always the same songs) and with others there is more rattling then bass... any ideas ?

Just noticed your question here.

This gets complicated, you start getting into frequencies that are resonating in your car. Basically your car is "tuning in" to certain frequencies of bass.

Sound is just vibrating air. The more the air vibrates, the louder the sound. Make enough air vibrate and it can make other things vibrate too.

Play one of the songs your getting the vibration from on repeat and move around your car. See if you can narrow down where the vibration is coming from. Eventually you can track down which parts are vibrating at which frequencies. Things like number plates, the steel rods in your doors, the plastic arm rest covers in the back seat, the little metal clips that hold some of the plastic parts in place and the plastic cover over the black shelf are some good starting points. I even had a problem with the cover over my high position brake light vibrating badly. Use foam or rubber to stop these parts rattling against the body/other parts of the car.
If it's the panels that are causing it (push hard against the panel your checking and see if it stops) You'll need some dynamat or other sound deadening material to stop it. There are a lot of posts discussing this, just do a search.

harry90 wrote:alright...so i went to strathfield today...i walked into the shop asked what i was looking for (obviously didnt seem too convincing to the person) he asked to listen to what i have now... so drove into the workshop and we told me it sounds great as it is with the stocks...i was like ...so he adjusted some of the settings on the head deck...and said its good as it is....was very awkward as i never thought they would refuse a customer wanting something?!?! so yea...i kinda felt ..let down ? but also a compliment is a compliment..so i dunno what to say...lol

You've just discovered another car audio truth.
A system is only as good as the tuning that is done on it...

The stock system already runs average splits, so compared to a lot of cars, FTO's aren't too bad.
But keep in mind that Strathfields are like the K-Mart of the car audio world.
They have some good stuff there, I'm not knocking them. And as you've found out some can give good customer service (by tuning up your system for free and not trying to push you into just handing over your money to them, they've looked after you better than a lot of places would...)

It all comes down to what you want from your audio system. If your happy with how it sounds now, leave it that way. Won't cost you anything to listen to it that way for a while and see how you like it. If the bug bites and you want more, then upgrade.

If you want a good comparison though, go and see a car audio specialist.
I'm not from Sydney so I don't know anywhere good, but ask some of the members over there to recommend a few places to you.
I'm sure if you head out on one of the cruises and ask some of them to show off their systems as well, they'd be happy to.
Burn off a CD of your favourite tracks and go visit these places. Don't rush into anything, once the money is out of your wallet and over the counter, you can't get it back. Just shop around and compare what you've got to what your hearing.
If you want more, invest some $$, If your happy then spend the cash on other mods for your car

harry90 · Post by **harry90** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:47 pm

TCGPX wrote:
harry90 wrote:i hate rattling from my car as well... this has been so obivous since i got my sub... but what i also dont get is that with some songs there is no rattling and the bass is perfect (always the same songs) and with others there is more rattling then bass... any ideas ?
Just noticed your question here.

This gets complicated, you start getting into frequencies that are resonating in your car. Basically your car is "tuning in" to certain frequencies of bass.

Sound is just vibrating air. The more the air vibrates, the louder the sound. Make enough air vibrate and it can make other things vibrate too.

Play one of the songs your getting the vibration from on repeat and move around your car. See if you can narrow down where the vibration is coming from. Eventually you can track down which parts are vibrating at which frequencies. Things like number plates, the steel rods in your doors, the plastic arm rest covers in the back seat, the little metal clips that hold some of the plastic parts in place and the plastic cover over the black shelf are some good starting points. I even had a problem with the cover over my high position brake light vibrating badly. Use foam or rubber to stop these parts rattling against the body/other parts of the car.
If it's the panels that are causing it (push hard against the panel your checking and see if it stops) You'll need some dynamat or other sound deadening material to stop it. There are a lot of posts discussing this, just do a search.

harry90 wrote:alright...so i went to strathfield today...i walked into the shop asked what i was looking for (obviously didnt seem too convincing to the person) he asked to listen to what i have now... so drove into the workshop and we told me it sounds great as it is with the stocks...i was like ...so he adjusted some of the settings on the head deck...and said its good as it is....was very awkward as i never thought they would refuse a customer wanting something?!?! so yea...i kinda felt ..let down ? but also a compliment is a compliment..so i dunno what to say...lol
You've just discovered another car audio truth.
A system is only as good as the tuning that is done on it...

The stock system already runs average splits, so compared to a lot of cars, FTO's aren't too bad.
But keep in mind that Strathfields are like the K-Mart of the car audio world.
They have some good stuff there, I'm not knocking them. And as you've found out some can give good customer service (by tuning up your system for free and not trying to push you into just handing over your money to them, they've looked after you better than a lot of places would...)

It all comes down to what [you]you[/you] want from your audio system. If your happy with how it sounds now, leave it that way. Won't cost you anything to listen to it that way for a while and see how you like it. If the bug bites and you want more, then upgrade.

If you want a good comparison though, go and see a car audio [you]specialist[/you].
I'm not from Sydney so I don't know anywhere good, but ask some of the members over there to recommend a few places to you.
I'm sure if you head out on one of the cruises and ask some of them to show off their systems as well, they'd be happy to.
Burn off a CD of your favourite tracks and go visit these places. Don't rush into anything, once the money is out of your wallet and over the counter, you can't get it back. Just shop around and compare what you've got to what your hearing.
If you want more, invest some $$, If your happy then spend the cash on other mods for your car

good advice ...thanks for the reply. I have noticed that most of the rattling does come from the back seats armrest thing (the dents in the walls) and as you suggest, by pushing into them the rattling does stop. what i dont know, is how to remove these panels...i tried use a screwdriver, but then realised that those single panels are actually connected to the entire side panel ( i think - it was kind of dark when i was trying this)...so i will need to open up this panel and then play some music and see what is actually happening, then i will need to decide what needs to be covered with some other material to stop the rattling.

TCGPX · Post by **TCGPX** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:38 am

DIY Guide on how to remove these panels:

http://www.hostilesmoker.pwp.blueyonder ... owto05.php

There's a link thru Dstocks Complete FTO site. Check it out, heaps of useful information (Cheering for Dstocks

)

http://www.completefto.com.au/CompleteFTO.asp?hid=21

There's also a link to some info on soundproofing using dynamat you may find handy...

But, BEFORE you pull apart your car, get yourself some foam...

Find a local matress or couch manufacturer. These places throw away HEAPS of foam offcuts that are perfect for this sort of thing. I picked up a mate from work one night who just happened to be next to a matress manufacturer. They had so much of it by their bin it's not funny. I filled my boot and every square centimeter of the back seat up to the roof with these offcuts. Coulda filled my car 5 times over. Cost me absolutely nothing and I'll never have to go looking for foam as long as i live

Use this foam to brace the plastic panel against the metal framework behind it. Work on one side, get it right, then mimic it on the other side. More rigid types of foam are better, you want the foam to hold the panel in a similar way to how you pushed against it to stop the vibration, only from the inside. Double sided tape is good to hold the foam in place (cheap stuff is useless, I've always found 3M branded tape to be good if you can find it) Make sure the path for your seat belt is left clear.

I also tucked a big block of this foam down the cavity between the metal frame and the body panel just above the rear wheel arch, blocking it off. This was very effective at stopping vibrations from getting to the panel in the first place and made a huge difference.
There are also some metal clips that hold onto the plastic panel in this frame. These can rattle, so try and dampen this as much as possible. Some people use blu-tac on them, I just used 2 pairs of needle nosed pliers to bend them into a much tighter fit. No problems... So far

Also check the bracket that goes between the frame and the back corner of the plastic panel. The screws that hold this in place can be loose. Make sure it's not.

It'll take you a while to get it right and you'll get very good at fitting and removing this panel

, but take your time and it'll be worth it.

If you've got a digicam, take some happy snaps. Might be good for other members who want to do the same thing later on. I never thought this would turn into a "how to" like it has, so I was lazy when I did mine

Grue · Post by **Grue** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:04 am

lol. Great minds and all that - did exactly the same with foam from my local bedding place couple of days ago!

Yup, that cavity in the body work by the rear wheel makes a big difference. Stuff a load up into there. Some of that thin (~1inch) eggshell foam behind the door cards was a good one too.

Post by **I8A4RE** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:19 pm

TCGPX mate thats awesome advise well done

boarsai · Post by **boarsai** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:22 pm

Gotta say I disagree with the consensus that 6x9's are useless when you have subbage as well. If only because I like to be enveloped in sound. Spending it all on the front makes me feel like I'm in a lopsided bubble of sound.

I'm not the best at explaining what I mean in regards to sound, so it seems

At any rate I prefer surround sound, even if the source is still stereo.

harry90 · Post by **harry90** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:17 pm

boarsai wrote:Gotta say I disagree with the consensus that 6x9's are useless when you have subbage as well. If only because I like to be enveloped in sound. Spending it all on the front makes me feel like I'm in a lopsided bubble of sound.

I'm not the best at explaining what I mean in regards to sound, so it seems

At any rate I prefer surround sound, even if the source is still stereo.

i get what you mean....before i took the car i always messed around with the settings...and when i turned off the stock 6x9's ( i think they are) and only used the front speakers...it sounded

different..?

Post by **I8A4RE** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:27 pm

Well done Boarsai

Seriously only a f&*=ken idiot would think that 6X9 are useless (or fill).

Those same idoits are trying to compare a car to a concert

you wouldnt go to a concert and stand backwards

A car is way differnt, has completely different characteristics.

But im through with arguing with people who try and pass opinions off as facts.

The best sound systems consists of rear speakers (6x9), front speakers (splits with crossovers), a amp or two and a sub(s)
[/quote]

mr-charisma · Post by **mr-charisma** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:59 pm

I8AFRE wrote: The best sound systems consists of rear speakers (6x9), front speakers (splits with crossovers), a amp or two and a sub(s)

[/quote]

That to me sounds like you've spent a few months selling sound gear before .. 'tis the usual sales pitch you'd get if you walked into any Autobarn & said, give me what is gonna sound best..

I wish I could go out and just go & buy all of those things off the shelf at my local Autobarn and have the best sound system ever! If it was that simple, everyone would be doing it .. unfortunately it has less to do with what type of speakers you buy & more to do with the quality of speakers that you buy .. theres a good chance that some quality expensive 6x9's will sound better than anything else that you put in the back.. but to me that defies the point.. IMO they're not supposed to be expensive..

Well done Boarsai

But im through with arguing with people who try and pass opinions off as facts.

Car sound systems are all about opinions!

Either you like it, or you don't. I can tell someone that I don't think they should have 6x9's in the back / that they shouldn't have a sub in the boot/ or that they should only have tweeters in the front cause it sounds fully sik bro... anyone would be stupid if they didn't go and listen to a few different systems before they buy.

It's when you get into the science of it, that you start dealing with facts & even then all the maths in the world can't make a crappy system sound good if YOU don't like it.

Sure as hell if they heard a system with only tweeters up the front they would laugh their head off & go buy some 6.5's or 6" speakers.

Same thing if they hear a system with 6x9's, then tell the sales guy to unplug them, or listen to a car with 6's or 6.5's in the rear.. If they think that 6x9's sound right for them, then go ahead & buy some ..

The only reason I think you're saying that 6x9's are the only option for your rear speakers is because you've never heard a system that used 6's or 6.5's in the rear before.
The reason? Most meat head installers / car audio places WANT to sell the 6x9 speakers they have on their shelves... the rest go with what the customer asks for or what they've read / been told is good..

Seriously only a f&*=ken idiot would think that 6X9 are useless (or fill).

Those same idoits are trying to compare a car to a concert

you wouldnt go to a concert and stand backwards
A car is way differnt, has completely different characteristics.

Real intelligent way of getting your point across.. even though i don't know what an 'idoit' is...

yeh, cars & concerts are different *duh*

I don't think he meant it to be taken so literally..

The point he was trying to make was that when you listen to music it sounds better when most of it is coming from in front of you, I don't think he was trying to discuss the similarities between cars & live music venues..[/quote]

TCGPX · Post by **TCGPX** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:18 pm

OK, usually I stay out of arguments like these, but seeing as I'm being slandered...

I8AFRE:
If you think that I'm comparing car audio to a concert, I'm not the idiot...
2 different kettles of fish.
It was simply something to get harry thinking about audio imaging without overloading him with technical info.

I've never said 6 x 9's are useless or just fill. I've had 6 x 9's or 7 x 10's in every car I've owned, infact have just upgraded my rears to 7 x 10's and will keep using oval speakers till I hear something I like better. But as Mr Charisma has pointed out and as I've said all along...

IT ALL COMES DOWN TO WHAT YOU LIKE THE SOUND OF....

I8AFRE wrote:But im through with arguing with people who try and pass opinions off as facts.

The best sound systems consists of rear speakers (6x9), front speakers (splits with crossovers), a amp or two and a sub(s)

This is the biggest contradiction I've heard!

THIS IS YOUR OPINION YOUR TRYING TO PASS OF AS FACT!

Car audio is not an exact science. It never will be cos everyone has a different opinion on what they like the sound of.

I'm not an expert, I'll never claim to be, but I've done 20 or so installs in my own cars, family and friends cos other people think that what I do sounds good. I give them some guidance, send em out to find what they like the sound of and then instal it for em. I've spent over 10 years learning about car audio. The ADVISE (that's all it is, most of the posts I've made say "go out and listen to it for yourself...") that I give is based on a lot of experience, not only in equipment, but also in peoples opinions about what sounds good.

6 x9's (or any rears for that matter) that overpower the front stage sound bad when compared to a balanced system. I don't think you'll need to do a survey on that one. I was in a friends car the other day who had this going, I suggested she tried shifting the fader more to the front... She balanced it out and commented on how much better it sounded. She's stoked now.

harry90 wrote:But i just feel that im not getting the most out of the speakers in the car... its literally just my sub and the rear speakers with the tunes... nothing else really stands out.

Did you notice this comment? ...

The origins of this whole argument are that I was trying to open up Harry90's mind towards other alternatives and maybe teach him a thing or two by getting him to listen to other ways to set up his system. Hopefully he'll make up his own mind on what sounds good, not just go out and buy what he's told to by others, which is where the thread started.

You should respect this.

Sorry Harry90 for dragging you or anyone else into this argument.
I'm not trying to turn this thread into a Jerry Springer episode.

I just hate being abused for trying to teach people to explore their options, then think for themselves...