6a13 non turbo block with 6a12 mivec heads
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- Bennoz
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Re: 6a13 non turbo block with 6a12 mivec heads
Because you were hell bent on giving all your money to rpw. That & I rarely get time to brain dump like that on a forum.
You've gotta understand the point of view all this is coming from, Im a mechanical engineer by trade with about 15 years experience in building cars.
Its not easy trying to dump every bit of knowledge I've got down on a piece of paper, or in this case a forum, all before I go to work of a morning
The prices I've quoted above would also require a fair amount of work from the person who attempts this. If I was doing this, I'd be sourcing the 6A13
motor & pulling it out myself, I'd strip it myself too & then hand it too the machine shop, I'd also pull the old motor out myself & strip that too.
Take that self labour out of the equation, its still gonna be 8 grand... and please don't take this as offensive, but combine your mechanical knowledge
with that of the 1 shop in Tasmania that can do anything remotely like this, and this would end up costing you the equivalent of a deposit for a house.
Plus, watching your project with interest, you are the kind of guy who wants things done now, if not sooner. Don't get me wrong, that not a bad trait
to have, but something like this will take a lot of time. Some of the project engines i've built have taken years to get right. I've fired up hand made monster
engines before for the first time & had them completely detonate. *Bang!* there goes 10 grand. "Ok, back to the drawing board, what did we do wrong?"
I've gone through at least 6 engines in my mini before I found the right combination of both useable horsepower & reliability.
Now excuse me whilst I go on a bit of a rant
Todays modified car scene pisses me off to no end. Really sh*ts me to tears, just picking up a Fast Fours magazine & browsing through. Todays super speed
society of want more power & want it now attitude has completely fucked the engineering knowledge base this country once had. Yeah great, I can go wack on
a bigger turbo & get another bazillion horsepower, plus I can even click the link on this suppliers website & have it delivered tomorrow! That's all good & well, but
tell me this, how do you tri-seat a valve & improve the flow of that cylinder head? No petrol headed kid will be able to tell you. In days gone by, you had to earn
your horsepower. Painfully & inch by inch removing metal from blocks & heads for better flow, or increasing capacity. Insidiously grinding the ports out in your
exhaust headers to ensure they match the head ports to within a few thousands of an inch. Now, try & find me a workshop that has a set of vernier calipers?
They'll look at you cross-eyed. I once had a carby off at the side of the road to unclog one of the primary venturis (most of you wont know what that is!) and
I dropped the carby. Cracked the entire housing from top to bottom. Did I call the NRMA? No, I ripped off some fencing wire from the side of the road & bound
the carb together, twisted it off with plyers & bolted it back onto the manifold. The car started first turn.... and it lasted almost 5 years like that.
And to make matters worse, todays petrol heads are one eyed! There are only a handful of engines they even look at! RB26, SR20, B18B etc.
What happens when you want to give mum an extra 20kws in her little old pulsar? Well you cant, because you cant find anything on any website for it!
Oh hang on, well we could port the head, put bigger valves in & a mild cam... but who's gonna know that? What kid today has the know-how to at least
pull the motor apart & get the bits down to an engineer to have them done? None of them. The kid will get on a forum like this, be told not to bother because
his local mechanic will charge 10 grand to do it. So what will he do? Get back on that website & order the big turbo. A job that will inevitably cost him more than
10 grand.
Big horsepower race motors not only have the big turbo, but they also have the match ported head, the big valves, the double valve springs, the high range cam
profile and the big bore pistons. Can you image how much power my car would make if I hand crafted all the internals like that? I'd be over 300kws! And in fact,
that exactly what I intend to do. For example, my car makes around 250kws now and everything on it is standard! Standard turbo's, standard interals, standard
everything on the motor, yet it is well tuned & put together with care & paitence - in contrast, Mr Charisma's car makes 300kws, only 50 more than me, and yet
he has a turbo so big it could suck the f**ken dags off a Terrier at a 100 yards!
For fucks sake, I even pulled the head off my lawn mower, ported it & decked it! You should see how quick I can mow the bloody lawns! Its annoying because I
barely get time to finish my beer
Anyways, enough ranting. Moral of the story is, you all need to come to my house & drink beer whilst we look at an engine block on my worksop bench. I'll tell you
everything you need to know.
Yes - your cams would be ideal for this - proven first that they actually work. Do me a favour, take a week off work, drive to Melbourne, put those cam gears on, put
the car on a dyno & get it tuned properly. With what you've done, you should be well in excess of a 140-150 kws.
Oh, and get off my lawn!
You've gotta understand the point of view all this is coming from, Im a mechanical engineer by trade with about 15 years experience in building cars.
Its not easy trying to dump every bit of knowledge I've got down on a piece of paper, or in this case a forum, all before I go to work of a morning
The prices I've quoted above would also require a fair amount of work from the person who attempts this. If I was doing this, I'd be sourcing the 6A13
motor & pulling it out myself, I'd strip it myself too & then hand it too the machine shop, I'd also pull the old motor out myself & strip that too.
Take that self labour out of the equation, its still gonna be 8 grand... and please don't take this as offensive, but combine your mechanical knowledge
with that of the 1 shop in Tasmania that can do anything remotely like this, and this would end up costing you the equivalent of a deposit for a house.
Plus, watching your project with interest, you are the kind of guy who wants things done now, if not sooner. Don't get me wrong, that not a bad trait
to have, but something like this will take a lot of time. Some of the project engines i've built have taken years to get right. I've fired up hand made monster
engines before for the first time & had them completely detonate. *Bang!* there goes 10 grand. "Ok, back to the drawing board, what did we do wrong?"
I've gone through at least 6 engines in my mini before I found the right combination of both useable horsepower & reliability.
Now excuse me whilst I go on a bit of a rant
Todays modified car scene pisses me off to no end. Really sh*ts me to tears, just picking up a Fast Fours magazine & browsing through. Todays super speed
society of want more power & want it now attitude has completely fucked the engineering knowledge base this country once had. Yeah great, I can go wack on
a bigger turbo & get another bazillion horsepower, plus I can even click the link on this suppliers website & have it delivered tomorrow! That's all good & well, but
tell me this, how do you tri-seat a valve & improve the flow of that cylinder head? No petrol headed kid will be able to tell you. In days gone by, you had to earn
your horsepower. Painfully & inch by inch removing metal from blocks & heads for better flow, or increasing capacity. Insidiously grinding the ports out in your
exhaust headers to ensure they match the head ports to within a few thousands of an inch. Now, try & find me a workshop that has a set of vernier calipers?
They'll look at you cross-eyed. I once had a carby off at the side of the road to unclog one of the primary venturis (most of you wont know what that is!) and
I dropped the carby. Cracked the entire housing from top to bottom. Did I call the NRMA? No, I ripped off some fencing wire from the side of the road & bound
the carb together, twisted it off with plyers & bolted it back onto the manifold. The car started first turn.... and it lasted almost 5 years like that.
And to make matters worse, todays petrol heads are one eyed! There are only a handful of engines they even look at! RB26, SR20, B18B etc.
What happens when you want to give mum an extra 20kws in her little old pulsar? Well you cant, because you cant find anything on any website for it!
Oh hang on, well we could port the head, put bigger valves in & a mild cam... but who's gonna know that? What kid today has the know-how to at least
pull the motor apart & get the bits down to an engineer to have them done? None of them. The kid will get on a forum like this, be told not to bother because
his local mechanic will charge 10 grand to do it. So what will he do? Get back on that website & order the big turbo. A job that will inevitably cost him more than
10 grand.
Big horsepower race motors not only have the big turbo, but they also have the match ported head, the big valves, the double valve springs, the high range cam
profile and the big bore pistons. Can you image how much power my car would make if I hand crafted all the internals like that? I'd be over 300kws! And in fact,
that exactly what I intend to do. For example, my car makes around 250kws now and everything on it is standard! Standard turbo's, standard interals, standard
everything on the motor, yet it is well tuned & put together with care & paitence - in contrast, Mr Charisma's car makes 300kws, only 50 more than me, and yet
he has a turbo so big it could suck the f**ken dags off a Terrier at a 100 yards!
For fucks sake, I even pulled the head off my lawn mower, ported it & decked it! You should see how quick I can mow the bloody lawns! Its annoying because I
barely get time to finish my beer
Anyways, enough ranting. Moral of the story is, you all need to come to my house & drink beer whilst we look at an engine block on my worksop bench. I'll tell you
everything you need to know.
Yes - your cams would be ideal for this - proven first that they actually work. Do me a favour, take a week off work, drive to Melbourne, put those cam gears on, put
the car on a dyno & get it tuned properly. With what you've done, you should be well in excess of a 140-150 kws.
Oh, and get off my lawn!
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Re: 6a13 non turbo block with 6a12 mivec heads
One day I'll take up this offerBennoz wrote: Anyways, enough ranting. Moral of the story is, you all need to come to my house & drink beer whilst we look at an engine block on my worksop bench. I'll tell you everything you need to know.
- Supplanter
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Re: 6a13 non turbo block with 6a12 mivec heads
LED ALL the things.
- rock_it
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Re: 6a13 non turbo block with 6a12 mivec heads
See you in about an hour ... At the moment I am stuck on A&W Root Beer ... It aint a beer, and I aint getting a root ... False advertising....Bennoz wrote: Anyways, enough ranting. Moral of the story is, you all need to come to my house & drink beer whilst we look at an engine block on my worksop bench. I'll tell you everything you need to know.
I just had to add it ......
sublime19 wrote:Lol clearly you don't know me well enough, it was a joke
I talk a lot of sh*t, usually have to keep a roll of toilet paper handy in the car for my mouth
Astron_Boy wrote:Hold me Sooty, I need man comfort.
- aza013
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Re: 6a13 non turbo block with 6a12 mivec heads
Hahaha now that's how the old school works
I still mix old school with alittle bit of new school in my car
I still mix old school with alittle bit of new school in my car
- crimson236
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Re: 6a13 non turbo block with 6a12 mivec heads
I would take up that offer when I pop by. Seems as though there's not many experts here in WA...Bennoz wrote:Anyways, enough ranting. Moral of the story is, you all need to come to my house & drink beer whilst we look at an engine block on my worksop bench. I'll tell you
everything you need to know.
- vipfto
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Re: 6a13 non turbo block with 6a12 mivec heads
yip totally agree and I even read the whole rant
FTO GR-TURBO
172KW ATW @ 11PSI
172KW ATW @ 11PSI
- koolio1234
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Re: 6a13 non turbo block with 6a12 mivec heads
I completely agree with your angle and the lack of patience we have today is really capping our intelligence, we need to go back to the days where engineering and physics were an integral part of performance modification. One reason why I like the autocross/khanacross scenes, those guys don't power their cars with 'off the shelf', quick fix addons. They fine tune their NA machines to get the most efficient setup. They machine, shave and bore their forced induction setups to maximise efficiency produce a well engineered product which last the test of time and use, all in their small backyard sheds.Bennoz wrote:Anyways, enough ranting. Moral of the story is, you all need to come to my house & drink beer whilst we look at an engine block on my worksop bench. I'll tell you everything you need to know.
[img]http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww104/thekrevolution/FTOFINALSIGNATUREcopy.png[/img]
- Storm
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Re: 6a13 non turbo block with 6a12 mivec heads
Love the line about stripping the carb
My old MG Midget stopped one night at the side of the road. A quick look around under the bonnet and I decided it was the HT lead from the coil to the distributor which had gone. So I replaced it with one of the spark plug ones.
Could I get home on 3 cylinders - yes. Did I want to do that - no!
One small but very green branch was utilised as an HT lead and the car was away, running on all four cylinders for the 20 or so miles it took me to get home.
Kids today - it would have been "Daaaaaaad, I'm stuck, come and get me..."
My old MG Midget stopped one night at the side of the road. A quick look around under the bonnet and I decided it was the HT lead from the coil to the distributor which had gone. So I replaced it with one of the spark plug ones.
Could I get home on 3 cylinders - yes. Did I want to do that - no!
One small but very green branch was utilised as an HT lead and the car was away, running on all four cylinders for the 20 or so miles it took me to get home.
Kids today - it would have been "Daaaaaaad, I'm stuck, come and get me..."
Life is short - Have an affair
- mr-charisma
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Re: 6a13 non turbo block with 6a12 mivec heads
Jesse: [saying grace] Dear Heavenly... uh... Spirit. Thank you. Thank you for providing us with the direct-port nitrous... uh... injection, four-core intercoolers, an' ball-bearing turbos, and... um... titanium valve springs. Thank you.
- FTO_GPvR
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Re: 6a13 non turbo block with 6a12 mivec heads
Fast and Furious quotes never gets oldTippin wrote:Jesse: [saying grace] Dear Heavenly... uh... Spirit. Thank you. Thank you for providing us with the direct-port nitrous... uh... injection, four-core intercoolers, an' ball-bearing turbos, and... um... titanium valve springs. Thank you.
- bduffman
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Re: 6a13 non turbo block with 6a12 mivec heads
looks like you need to set up a class bennoz ill be there and the thing bout the fto is we cant be like that cause there are no add ons no one cares bout us enough to build a turbo add on im keen for more power but i no its not as simple as wacking in a hair dryer and be done with it as ive seen from your engine build cars interest me if i wanted power i wouldnt have bought a fto ild be driving a wanka holden like every other toss p plater ive owned a corolla and a fto and never once touched the engine bay for proformance and prob wont untill im off my Ps but as a p plater im interested in NA tuning
- Bennoz
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Re: 6a13 non turbo block with 6a12 mivec heads
This ^^^^^^ is exactly what Im on about. Who gives a sh*t of you cant find something on a website to bolt on.bduffman wrote:we cant be like that cause there are no add ons
The amount of money everyone spends on sh*tty intake piping & exhuasts, could be much better allocated.
You've all heard the saying "You can't beat cubes".... its best way for more power is to go bigger. Bore it out!
- spetz
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Re: 6a13 non turbo block with 6a12 mivec heads
Bringing up an old thread...Bennoz wrote: Now, the things we know will fit:
* 6A12 heads will bolt to the block - they have the same stud patterns
* The standard 6A12 Mivec timing assembly will fit on if - you change over the crank timing belt pulley from the 6A12 to the 6A13 crank and - you do not alter the deck heights of either the block or head (ie no major decking / machining of either.)
Bennoz how would this work if the 6A13 and 6A12 block heights are different. From memory the 2.5L is 19mm taller per bank.
And how many teeth does a 6A13TT timing belt have?
The 6A12 MIVEC has 232 teeth, and the non-MIVEC has 226 teeth, so I would think/expect that the 2.5L block + MIVEC heads would need a longer belt on the assumption that all DOHC non-MIVEC heads are the same cast
- Bennoz
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Re: 6a13 non turbo block with 6a12 mivec heads
234 teeth on the 6A13 belt mate.
Only way you'd find the right belt is by trial & error. So long as the cams do half a roatation per rotation of the crank, you'll be fine.
Only way you'd find the right belt is by trial & error. So long as the cams do half a roatation per rotation of the crank, you'll be fine.
- spetz
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Re: 6a13 non turbo block with 6a12 mivec heads
Bennoz, any way you can measure the distance between the head gasket to the cam on your 6A13?
- Storm
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6a13 non turbo block with 6a12 mivec heads
^ This - so as long as your crank pulley has exactly half as much teeth as your camshaft pulleys then you'll be fine. Just need to get the right length of belt so the proper tension is held on it.Bennoz wrote: So long as the cams do half a roatation per rotation of the crank, you'll be fine.
Life is short - Have an affair
- spetz
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Re: 6a13 non turbo block with 6a12 mivec heads
Yes but I think that sounds much simpler than it really is.
My assumption is that the 6A12 non MIVEC and 6A13TT should share the DOHC heads.
And the 6A12 MIVEC/non-MIVEC have 232 and 226 tooth belts respectively.
So if that theory is right, on the assumption that the cam belt gear, tensioner etc is the same, the 6A12/13 hybrid would need a 234 + 6 belt, ie a 240 tooth belt with the same thickness, tooth shape, spacing etc etc
But where to find this belt... this belt does exist though, that is certain.
My assumption is that the 6A12 non MIVEC and 6A13TT should share the DOHC heads.
And the 6A12 MIVEC/non-MIVEC have 232 and 226 tooth belts respectively.
So if that theory is right, on the assumption that the cam belt gear, tensioner etc is the same, the 6A12/13 hybrid would need a 234 + 6 belt, ie a 240 tooth belt with the same thickness, tooth shape, spacing etc etc
But where to find this belt... this belt does exist though, that is certain.