Mythbusting(?) - re learning ECU's

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Shane001
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Mythbusting(?) - re learning ECU's

Post by Shane001 »

As posted in a Help thread;
Supplanter wrote:If the battery has been flat then the ECU would have reset. That means that for the first hour or so it will keep stalling until it learns how to idle properly.
I assume disconnecting the battery altogether for a period of time would also reset the ecu, resulting in a need to 'relearn'?

The battery in my racecar is always disconnected (kill switch) every time it's turned off. Can sit for weeks / months without reconnecting. But I never have any problems starting, running or racing it afterwards? Maybe it doesn't need to re learn flat out :lol:

Could this be a bit of a myth? (no flames please, genuine question ;) )


Discuss ;)
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Re: Mythbusting(?) - re learning ECU's

Post by xj265 »

total guess here but maybe its do to more with the tip FTO's?
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Re: Mythbusting(?) - re learning ECU's

Post by Shane001 »

hmm, maybe, mine is of course a manual
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Re: Mythbusting(?) - re learning ECU's

Post by Shhtuart »

Code: Select all

[b]INVECS II[/b]

Despite sharing its name with the previous system, the second version of INVECS was a radical development, based on Porsche's Tiptronic semi-automatic transmission technology.[5] As with Porsche's version it allowed for either a fully automatic mode, or a clutchless semi-automatic mode if the driver wished to control the up- and down-shift points. It also offered the same Adaptive Shift Control software which monitored and "learned" the driver's habits over time and adjusted the smoothness or aggression of the gearshifts to suit his or her driving style.[6] It was first implemented in the new Mitsubishi FTO in 1994.[2]
Tip only, so I'd say.
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Re: Mythbusting(?) - re learning ECU's

Post by Supplanter »

It was specifically idling that I was talking about. Engine starts OK, take it for a drive, when you stop at an intersection the idle goes so low that the car stalls. It lasts for about an hour. This has happened every time I have had a flat battery/disconnected the battery. I thought it was common to FTOs, and other cars as well. :scratch:
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Re: Mythbusting(?) - re learning ECU's

Post by Dras »

A tip FTO has 2 learning computers, the ECU and the tip computer. Both would need to relearn everything after a power cycle.

The tip box computer learns your driving style and changes the up and down shift points depending on how aggressively you drive.

The only thing the ECU needs to learn is how to idle smoothly and efficiently. If your car is stalling after an ECU reset, you should adjust the idle control screw on the throttle body. This will allow more air to bypass the butterfly and the stepper motor (controlled by the ECU) won't have to compensate as much.

Shane, in your race car, I doubt you care if the idle is as smooth as it can be, or whether the air fuel ratio is spot on 14.7:1, so, while the car is learning, I doubt it effects you in any significant way.

The other thing that is lost with a power cycle on both computers is any error codes that have occurred.
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Re: Mythbusting(?) - re learning ECU's

Post by Gholdwayne »

I've never had any idling issues after ecu resets.
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Re: Mythbusting(?) - re learning ECU's

Post by aza013 »

Same for me :D
I also kill the car with a kill switch With no problems after, Well apart from resetting the mivec controller lol.
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Re: Mythbusting(?) - re learning ECU's

Post by Shane001 »

Yeah, don't care too much for idling lol!

But yeah if there was an issue I guess I'd seeing it stalling when gridding up after the warm up lap, but never had a problem.

Must be just tips...
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Re: Mythbusting(?) - re learning ECU's

Post by Dras »

Shane001 wrote:Must be just tips...
It has nothing to do with the manual / auto gearbox, it is much more to do with crud building up in the intake.

Out of the factory, the idle screw was set to a point where enough air would bypass the throttle butterfly that the car would idle happily with the stepper at its home position. The ECU can then move the stepper to fine tune the idle.

Over time, especially when the PCV valve is not serviced, oil ends up in the intake tracts and then the small particles that make it past the air filter stick to that oil. You end up with crud in the intake and more restrictions. A dirty air filter will also add restrictions to the intake. Now the idle screw only provides a small opening and these restrictions stop enough air getting to the engine during idle while the stepper is at its home position. You therefore end up with the engine stalling until the ECU learns to compensate.

Easy fix is to adjust the idle screw so that the car doesn't stall. Harder fix is to take the intake apart and clean the whole thing out with carby cleaner.

This of course assumes that you are running a stock intake setup. Changing the intake by say adding an unboxed pod filter will change the volume of oxygen reaching the throttle body at idle and you can expect to adjust the idle screw.

I am looking at putting together a nice intake for my car and I have been researching all things intake / PCV / catch can. Will probably do a write up when I am done.
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Re: Mythbusting(?) - re learning ECU's

Post by Bennoz »

Lets not forget leaking butterfly shaft seals too, can cause fluctuations on GPXs (MAS sensor)

Also a dirty MAF sensor centre plate can also cause big idle problems on non mivecs. It was what stopped Lawsos car starting at all after we threw the 2nd hand motor in. Cleaned the wads of grease off the MAF pickup & she fired first go.
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Re: Mythbusting(?) - re learning ECU's

Post by Shane001 »

Excellent explanation DRAS :D
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Re: Mythbusting(?) - re learning ECU's

Post by silverGPX »

Bennoz wrote:Lets not forget leaking butterfly shaft seals too, can cause fluctuations on GPXs (MAS sensor)

Also a dirty MAF sensor centre plate can also cause big idle problems on non mivecs. It was what stopped Lawsos car starting at all after we threw the 2nd hand motor in. Cleaned the wads of grease off the MAF pickup & she fired first go.
Where is the maf sensor centre plate?
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Re: Mythbusting(?) - re learning ECU's

Post by Bennoz »

Bit in the middle ;)

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Re: Mythbusting(?) - re learning ECU's

Post by Storm »

The TIP ECU only keeps a recent memory so it can alter the shift pattern depending on your current driving style. ie, if you are hooning around the back roads, like I do a lot, and then drive into town it will hold the revs higher before changing up but just for a little bit until it realises you are no longer driving like a hooligan. Thats the learning part of the INVECS 11, there is no long term learning involved.

On the other hand, modern engine ECUs keep an eye on parameters such as fuel use, injector cycle, etc so they can adjust things over time as parts of the engine wear, this is often know as "fuel trim". This allows it to compensate so your engine should remain running near as well as when it left the factory. This means that by building up this data it know if the extra fuel usage the car needs as it ages is normal or outside the parameters it would expect. Fuel trim will change slowly over time and a sudden change can throw up an error code.

Therefore if the memory in the engine ECU is scrubbed due to it being left with no power for a while it will revert to the original factory settings and will take a little while to build up enough information to get it back running at its optimal. I assume that more modern cars have a short term memory module which is not dependent on a constant power source and I would also assume that the closer your engine is to new, ie unworn injectors, good fuel pump pressure, etc, the less time it will take to get to normal as it will have less compensating to do to get it in its optimal fuel trim.

With a 17 year old car, as mine is, and the original 160,000 mile engine in it there is obviously a fair bit of compensating to do.

Hence the reason people leave it running to allow it to build up the data it needs to run smoothly. Although I much prefer just a good thrash round those back roads. ;)

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Re: Mythbusting(?) - re learning ECU's

Post by Dras »

The fuel trim is only used during idle.

At idle the ECU is in a closed loop mode where feedback from the o2 sensor is used to maintain a nice smooth idle. The fuel trim is used to estimate a starting point for the amount of fuel to use which is then corrected by the o2 sensor feedback.

A piggyback computer cannot make changes before the switch over to open loop mode (where the o2 sensor is not used) because any changes made will be compensated for and undone by the ECU.
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Re: Mythbusting(?) - re learning ECU's

Post by Storm »

Dras wrote:The fuel trim is only used during idle.

At idle the ECU is in a closed loop mode where feedback from the o2 sensor is used to maintain a nice smooth idle. The fuel trim is used to estimate a starting point for the amount of fuel to use which is then corrected by the o2 sensor feedback.

A piggyback computer cannot make changes before the switch over to open loop mode (where the o2 sensor is not used) because any changes made will be compensated for and undone by the ECU.
Short Term Fuel Trim is only used during idle, I agree, but a Mitsi has three levels of fuel trim.

Heres some info from the MLR Forum
Watching the short term trim helps get a tune to run smooth.

Here's my take. The Short Term trim chases the O2 sensor back and forth across 14.7:1. The system is setup to toggle the O2 sensor and you can see the short term trim waggling around to keep the O2 sensor toggling.

If the short term is waggling across 0% then the long terms will not change.

If the short term trim is waggling around +10%, then the long term will slowly decrement to bring the short term back to waggling around 0% again.

Now, in a mitsu there are usually 3 long term trims, you can't tell which one is being used, but one is mostly idle, one is for light throttle cruising, and the last one is moderate accel and higher.

The short term trim and the long term trim are always used to control fueling. When you are 'open loop' the trims are still used in the fuel delivery, but they are frozen (short term at 0%, long term at whatever it was at)

Now, for light throttle driveability tuning, you want to watch your short trim. As you lightly accelerate, watch the STFT as the airflow and rpms climb. if the STFT climbs rapidly, there is a lean spot in your map that the STFT is chasing.

The above are generalities, but a good start in understanding the trims. If the LTFT's are reasonable, and the STFT doesn't have to reach too far, your drivability will be best.
Heres some info I gleaned from the Audi forum which describes the difference between "Additive Trim" and "Multiplicative Trim".
The ECU controls Air/Fuel mixture in order to maintain power, efficiency, and emissions. A/F is expressed as either a ratio (14.7:1 for example) or as a Lambda value. With iso-octane ("ideal" gasoline), Lambda of 1.0 is equal to 14.7:1 A/F. This is known as "Stoichiometric", a condition where there is a perfect balance between oxygen molecules and the various hydrogen and carbon based molecules in petroleum. With the oxygenated gasoline that most of us use, actual A/F ratio of 15:1 is closer to stoichiometric.

If Lambda is greater than 1.0, then there is a surplus of air and the engine is running lean. If Lambda is less than 1.0, then there is a surplus of fuel and the engine is running rich. It should be noted that the ratios are mass-based, not volume-based.

So, why don't we always run at 1.0 all the time? Well, we do MOST of the time. At cruise and idle, mixture is held tightly to 1.0 to keep the catalytic convertor at optimal efficiency, so the emissions are minimized. However, when we need acceleration, the mixture gets richer. Why? Maximum power is made between 0.85 to 0.95 Lambda (12.5 to 14.0 A/F with iso-octane). So, under acceleration, mixtures get richer. Sometimes you want to get even richer under acceleration to keep detonation (pre-ignition of the mixture from excess cylinder temperatures) away.

So, now that we know that the ECU wants to be able to control the A/F ratio. It has a prescribed set of values (maps) for a given RPM, Load, etc. So, the ECU tells the injectors to pulse for exactly XX.X milliseconds and that SHOULD get us the proper A/F ratio that we want. Well, if you tell an employee to go do something, you want to make sure they actually did it, right? The ECU has some snitches (the O2 sensor and the MAF, for the most part) that will report back whether or not the desired mixture has been attained.

Based on feedback from the snitches, the ECU learns to apply a correction factor to its commands to the fuel injectors. If you know that your employees take longer than the standard allotted time to do a specified job, you will need to adjust for that in your planning (injectors are in a union, so it is tough to fire them ). The learned values go between the maps in the ECU's Flash ROM (the "chip") and the signal to the fuel injectors. These learned compensations are known as "trim". So, when you see "trim", it means "compensation".

"Add" means additive trim, which is addressing an imbalance at idle. When the ECU is using additive trim, it is telling the injectors to stay open a fixed amount longer or shorter. The malfunction (e.g. vacuum leak) becomes less significant as RPM increase. For additive adaptation values, the injection timing is changed by a fixed amount. This value is not dependent on the basic injection timing.

"Mult" mean multiplicative trim, which is addressing an imbalance at all engine speeds. The malfunction (e.g. clogged injector) becomes more severe at increased RPM. For multiplicative adaptation values, there is a percentage change in injection timing. This change is dependent on the basic injection timing.

You can check your current state of trim by using VAG-COM or equivalent to look in Group 032 in your engine measuring blocks. The first two fields will have percentages. The first field tells the fuel trim at idle (Additive). The second field tells the fuel trim at elevated engine speeds (Multiplicative). Negative values indicate that the engine is running too rich and oxygen sensor control is therefore making it more lean by reducing the amount of time that the injectors are open. Positive values indicate that the engine is running too lean and oxygen sensor control is therefore making it richer by increasing the amount of time that the injectors are open.

It is totally normal for both the first and second fields to be something other than zero. In fact, zeros indicate either you just cleared codes (which will reset fuel trim values) or something isn't working properly. If values get too far away from zero, it will cause a DTC (fault code) and can set off the MIL (commonly referred to as the Check Engine Light, or CEL).

Specifications for normal operation are usually somewhere near +/- 10%.
In general, an out-of-spec value in the first field (Additive) indicates a vacuum leak since it is mostly present at idle, when vacuum is highest. An out-of-spec value in the second field (Multiplicative) indicates a fault at higher RPM, and may point to a faulty MAF.
If I remember correctly EVOScan gives you the different fuel trims but I haven't used it for a while so I could be wrong - again :lol:
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Re: Mythbusting(?) - re learning ECU's

Post by Dras »

Interesting read.

And yes, EvoScan does show the various trim values.
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