A philosophical question for car enthusiasts

Astron_Boy · Post by **Astron_Boy** » Thu May 31, 2012 12:51 pm

Good post Nacho.

And I agree, would make a really good thesis.

The responses have all been kept civil, and is great if it can stay this way, as it is a really interesting topic, and can make some people think twice. (Even really if to benefit themselves, which in time relays to others...)

Kustom · Post by **Kustom** » Thu May 31, 2012 1:02 pm

Nacho wrote:
Very interesting topic......but you need to dig deeper. It sounds like a great topic to write a thesis on. But the questions I asked myself when I came to this realization was:

a) Is it my goal in life to help those who are in need?

If you can truly answer yes to this question then really you would already be prepared to give your life to someone else because that's your goal and purpose. There is a significant difference in donating a few hundred dollars compared to being out there digging out a well to estalish a solid water supply.....there's a lot more sacrifice.

So going back to digging deeper.......I suggest conducting a deeper study on human behaviour at its primitive level. I wrote a thesis on a completely different topic but the experiment is essentially the same and almost impossible to test. It involves isolating the subjects (from birth) to any moral, emotional and cultural influences so you can test at a primitive (survival) state.

Picture you have two people who have no knowledge or influences of morality, capitalism, communism, jealousy, social status. If one were starving and other had food.......would it share it's food with the other?

This is very hard to apply this to today's standards but if you could understand a human at its core then it may help understand how we think.

And no.....this is not a rant.....just another point of view.

Feedback?

Great post Nacho!

Very interesting topic.

*steps back into the shadows*

Post by **bjk** » Thu May 31, 2012 1:35 pm

I don't know if I'm yet old or mature enough to know my goal or purpose, at least specifically. I would agree with that difference, it depends a great deal on lifestyle I suppose. However it occured, I realised I am remarkably fortunate by no merit of my own. It is that, I believe, and not an idea of purpose, that motivates me. Sure, I do things with my life, which is my choice, but living here was not.

The question of base ethics is an interesting one, and as you say, impossible to determine. I'd be more inclined to base things on actual people rather than speculation though.

Post by **dstocks** » Thu May 31, 2012 2:22 pm

There are so many people to help and you cant do it all. I personally feel very sus about the actual amount of aid that actually gets to individuals with respect to charity, so I tend to shy away from that option. I sat and thought about the whole giving back thing myself a few years back. I wanted to make a difference and put quite a bit of thought into how I might be able to in some small way give something back. It might sound strange, but that is what embarked me on the whole parts thing for the club. What can I afford to give; well time, knowledge and on occasion a location. I guess I have concentrated on helping the people around me more than going further abroad. I tend to see it more as a community service than anything else.

I guess what im saying is that people in need are not always poor, they exist at all levels in life. Dealing with my partners severe depression over the last 5 years has taught me this. I believe that you can make a difference almost anywhere. The important thing is to find where you can do the most good.

So my question: do you mean poor in terms of financials, health, happiness or a combination of all. You need not go too far before running into several of those.

Having said that, now youve made me feel a bit guilty that im not doing a whole lot more. Might have to have a bit more of a think.

Nacho · Post by **Nacho** » Thu May 31, 2012 2:25 pm

bjk wrote:I don't know if I'm yet old or mature enough to know my goal or purpose, at least specifically. I would agree with that difference, it depends a great deal on lifestyle I suppose. However it occured, I realised I am remarkably fortunate by no merit of my own. It is that, I believe, and not an idea of purpose, that motivates me. Sure, I do things with my life, which is my choice, but living here was not.

The question of base ethics is an interesting one, and as you say, impossible to determine. I'd be more inclined to base things on actual people rather than speculation though.

You calling me old?

Seriously though whether you're not old or mature enough......it's a good start that at least you think and reflect on these kind of topics. So is this something you were just wondering or are you actually studying this at uni?

Post by **bjk** » Thu May 31, 2012 2:57 pm

Appreciate the comment dstocks. We all do have different capacities and skills that we can lend each other, and especially with our close relationships. I think that a good thing is a good thing, regardless of the degree. Although this shouldn't preclude trying to do things beyond our immediate sphere. I just think of child sponsorship most, because it's fairly tangible and fairly affordable. I know I could easily not spend like $10 a week. Thinking seriously about it sometime soon.

How old are you?

Not specifically studying it. I'm actually third year Visual Arts, and as part of my musings on career and projects to do, and given that I've been a bit obsessive over the FTO (more the fact I wanted one but parents thought it was too impractical), it's come up in my thoughts of late.

For example, I wanted to apply for funding to make a project that involves modifying my car (mostly visual, like wheels, body kit) present that as a to scale photo-box, along with a couple other things and a statement as to why I was doing it. it interacts with my "everyday" life a lot. And want vs need, how things we do to our bodies (and in this case, cars) reflect and project our sense of self and ego, among others.

But it's a strange irony: trying to make a social message, but also getting what I 'want'. That is, how much am I trying to formulate my artistic idea so that I get 'real world' things, and does it matter?

Post by **dstocks** » Thu May 31, 2012 3:32 pm

Im going quite off topic here to answer the question above so feel free to ignore this post and continue on the original theme if that suits

Well, ill be 45 in December this year if that helps. Personally I was looking for a win-win as that was sustainable in the long term and would exist potentially after I was gone and something that would provide tangable benefits to not just me. This tends to provide the enthusiasm to keep it going (you can see you are making a difference). I have a couple of projects that im trying to undertake on this front.

With the FTO "project" I make enough to cover costs with the parts i sell and the kits I bring to the club (and screw ups I occasionally make) + a little for R&D. On the plus side, everyone in the club wins and occasionally I get to help people out of tight situations. The bonfire once a year is a no brainer there as it provides a forum for people to meet and also sustains the club.

I also have a nursery business in ferns that I and my wife run outside of my day job (IT). Thats what is in all the greenhouses...... I plan to do a similar thing in this area. The output in this case will be knowledge that will be shared (rather than held to the chest as IP) and hopefully a botanic garden that will exist for the benefit of all after im gone.

I know that this isnt directly saving anyone, but you have to start somewhere. If you are interested in your car for example, how can you use that passion and drive to help others as well as achieving your goal (this is what drove me). It doesnt seem so selfish then. Maybe its just me and maybe its a little egotistical, but id like to leave something positive behind when im gone. I dont need to be famous or even be recognised, but I dont want to have been pointless.

Post by **bjk** » Thu May 31, 2012 4:01 pm

Sorry about the ambiguity on the age question, which was directed at Nacho. (I'm on my phone, so quoting big things makes it hard for my browser. But still relevant. You're about same age as my father.

I can relate to trying to make it win-win, and I think as you've described it's working well. My only concern, personally, is that my interest in cars is fairly limited to me. and my lack of knowledge means I don't have a lot to offer. As another example, I play piano, which brings me a lot of satisfaction, enjoyment to the people who hear me, and people I play with (doing a band thing with my younger brother and his friends atm). In that way, I could justify spending money more easily than I could on my car.

Which is why I'm thinking about whether I'm abusing being an artist. that is, I would find no way to justify spending $3000 on my car, but if that 3k was something that wouldn't go to promoting charity at all (in terms of a funded artistic project), that would settle better for me.

Post by **dstocks** » Thu May 31, 2012 4:21 pm

OK, so what skills to you have?. I guess im asking what type of artist are you? (music?). Dont rule out your ability to contribute just yet!

Also, things are never as black and white as what you are portraying them to be. For example, if you are in a happy/contented state, that makes you better able to create (being an artist). In that way, it may be that you have to have something to dream about/look forward to in order to be able to give back. I know that I work like this. Guess thats a bit selfish in itself.

How about this scenario:

Create a separate bank account to your normal acct. Any money you make in the pursuit of helping others, you can put in that account and spend some on yourself and invest the rest into providing continued/additional assistance.

Post by **bjk** » Thu May 31, 2012 4:56 pm

Well, I'm specialising in printmaking. But I'm not limited to just that area, it's just where I've acquired a few more practical skills/techniques. But in addition to my degree, as a hobby/interest I compose my own music. Nothing has come of it yet, but this band with my brother is a start. And I also write a bit, as is evident. Have done philosophic things like this, dabbled in poetry, a finished novel draft and a half finished one.

In a way, the art I make is a lot about the process of figuring out these things. who I am, who I want to be. recently it's been about cars. wanting an FTO, wanting to change the car I have, wanting new wheels. it's a lot of want. It makes me think sometimes (often), but tends to worry dad because I'm devoting too much brain space to it, and not enough to everything else.

Post by **dstocks** » Thu May 31, 2012 5:11 pm

Its important to have dreams though (even if one of them is a little materialistic - its not as though an FTO costs the earth and it does provide transport from A to B). Gives you something to look forward to and stops you going crazy. Besides, if you are about to finish a degree/uni, it doesnt hurt to give yourself a pat on the back for sticking at it. Also, will it be an outlet for your creative ability. If the answer is yes, then maybe it is something you need rather than want (the music is probably a little like that as well). Next step is trying to work out how to make it fit with your morals. Can it be offset somehow? I dont know the answer to that one as it tends to be a fairly personal choice.

Youve said you are studying printmaking. is that type for papers, magazines etc or does it also include graphical aspects?

Post by **bjk** » Thu May 31, 2012 5:29 pm

dstocks wrote:Its important to have dreams though (even if one of them is a little materialistic - its not as though an FTO costs the earth and it does provide transport from A to B). Gives you something to look forward to and stops you going crazy. Besides, if you are about to finish a degree/uni, it doesnt hurt to give yourself a pat on the back for sticking at it. Also, will it be an outlet for your creative ability. If the answer is yes, then maybe it is something you need rather than want (the music is probably a little like that as well). Next step is trying to work out how to make it fit with your morals. Can it be offset somehow? I dont know the answer to that one as it tends to be a fairly personal choice.

Youve said you are studying printmaking. is that type for papers, magazines etc or does it also include graphical aspects?

All the other things basically sit with the moral question, and in the end, it will be something I have to decide for myself. Although I really have been interested in hearing everyone's opinions on why they do what they do, and I think it will help inform how I go about things.

The printmaking is more what you'd describe as 'artwork' (although, if you saw the print I did of the FTO, or the one that Phil adapted in his sig, you'd get an idea of my 'style' which is fairly clean and design-like). Think of it in the same vein as painting or sculpture or similar, just a different medium.

Post by **dstocks** » Thu May 31, 2012 5:40 pm

In that case, have you thought about designing T shirts/mugs/stickers/prints for club members so they could be sold at a nominal price. This is just an idea. The proceeds would help the club and yourself and you would be able to feel as though you were contributing to the greater good? It would also give you real experience in what is involved and the coordination that is required for this sort of output. Im not saying this in an official capacity by the way, just presenting you with ideas. There is an FTO print on Ebay (UK) ive been eyeing off for ages that they have done something similar with. REplacing the standard stickers with lower cost equivalents and aftermarket alternatives is another idea.

Sahin · Post by **Sahin** » Thu May 31, 2012 5:50 pm

Just wanna say a big thanks to dstocks for all the work he has done for this club and all the hard work. It doesn't go unnoticed and we are very grateful.. (well I know I am)
Speaking of stickers
Dstocks, pm me a price for genuine side mivec stickers...
Oh and 1,000 posts

Nacho · Post by **Nacho** » Thu May 31, 2012 5:58 pm

Sahin wrote:Just wanna say a big thanks to dstocks for all the work he has done for this club and all the hard work. It doesn't go unnoticed and we are very grateful.. (well I know I am)
Speaking of stickers
Dstocks, pm me a price for genuine side mivec stickers...
Oh and 1,000 posts

+1

PHIL069 · Post by **PHIL069** » Thu May 31, 2012 8:57 pm

dstocks wrote:Having said that, now youve made me feel a bit guilty that im not doing a whole lot more. Might have to have a bit more of a think.

From what I have seen dstocks you are helping a lot of people, young and old, poor and rich. You are helping with what you know best, FTO's.

bjk wrote:The question of base ethics is an interesting one, and as you say, impossible to determine. I'd be more inclined to base things on actual people rather than speculation though.

My story may not be relevant either, but it will give you some idea how I got to now, why I am who I am now and were I am heading.
I don't often like to dwell on the negative parts of my life, but them along with the good parts got me here.
Here it goes........
For starters my father was not into cars but my friends were, thats how I found my passion for modding cars back in the 80's, this will become more relevant at the end.
I had some personal issues when I was 15, I was....lets say.....not treated correctly by a family friend, this wasn't properly delt with by me until my mid 20's.
I met my wonderful misses at age 18. We had our first son at age 22, all went well with this birth. 6 months later my misses was diognosed with type 1 diabeties, yes the kind that requires insulin needles 7 times a day for the rest of her life. We had our second son at age 24, this birth went slightly wrong, as my misses is a tiny girl and our son was a big baby, he had to be forcefully removed, which in turn damaged nerves in his arm, known as ervs palsy. This required over 5 years of phisio and hospital visits, but the condition still remains. We had our third son at age 32, he was born via an emergency C-Section 3 months premature, due to low blood circulation. He lived at hospital for the first 4 months, then went back to hospital 1 month later for an operation. He had phisio for 7 years, wore splints on his legs from age 4 to 7, had to have speech therapy from ages 5 to 8, no signs of all this remain. We had our daughter 6 years ago, but she is no longer with us, you never think that you have to bury your own children and this was very difficult to deal with for my misses, sons and myself. We let helium balloons loose at our favourite spot yearly now, for her, my 10 year old thinks we are sending them to heaven. My family and I are survivng and growing into a happy life together now.
Nearly 4 years ago I stumbled upon my FTO at half it's value, and I purchased it and it is changing my life for the better. It was on fathers day and I feel that I was meant to find this material object. I found a lot of happiness in modding my FTO and my sons enjoy helping me work on it and we all enjoy going for a drive in it. This FTO is now part of me and I will never part with it, hopefully. Since finding my FTO I have been lucky enough to forfill my life long passion in mechanics and become an apprentice, this is going to take me into my next phase of life, finally soon to earning an awsome income hopefully in the mining industry. I have also found a whole bunch of new friends on FTO Australia, people that I can help, have a laugh with and banter with, also people who like to help and have fun with me.

So I am showing charity to people, myself + my family + my work/tafe colleges + my new FTO mates. So I will continue to spend my money on my family and myself and my FTO, it's my way of happiness. As well as putting crap on everyones posts when I see the opportunity, for me it's fun.
My philosophical statement.......Enjoy your own life and have heaps of fun, you never know when or how things are going to change.

EDIT: Not after sympathy, this is my life, *gets off of the pschyciatrist's lounge and pays the bill*

Sahin · Post by **Sahin** » Thu May 31, 2012 9:19 pm

Nice Phil, proud of ya mate... Don't let sh*t get you down
I haven't had a perfect life either... (who does) but won't go into much detail.

Post by **dstocks** » Thu May 31, 2012 9:33 pm

Just wanna say a big thanks to dstocks for all the work he has done for this club and all the hard work. It doesn't go unnoticed and we are very grateful.. (well I know I am)

Sorry, This was never supposed to go down this path. I was just trying to illustrate that there are all sorts of ways in which you can give something back and there are varying types of help that people need. I personally like to think that you put the skills you have to best use in providing that so it has the best benefit. And if it gives you a sense of enjoyment and satisfaction in the process, even better.

phi-tec · Post by **phi-tec** » Thu May 31, 2012 10:29 pm

Sahin wrote: Oh and 1,000 posts

half of them are spams and

's

anyways..
these topics remind me of conversations after too some bikkies,
ignore me if i sway off the topic etc, was a lot to read
but the way i see it, for myself, i have enough issues looking out for myself financially etc etc, after all the partying etc etc i noticed how all my money disappeared with nothing to show (obviously memories and good times cant necessarily be bought etc etc)
after that i realised i need to have some materialistic assets.. (just felt like i needed to) so buying stuff for my car was the start.. house etc has to come later for me personally. as for donating, i dont donate money to overseas even my parents home country, not cause i dont want to or anything, i just never have and dont really plan to. i have/do donate stuff to redcross etc, and give money to the poor that i see on the street (THAT I ASSUME, are not druggos)
come to think of it i dont know if my post even means anything. im jst venting

Sahin · Post by **Sahin** » Thu May 31, 2012 10:49 pm

I have never spammed and only about 20 of my posts contain less than one word

FTO AUSTRALIA