FTO AUSTRALIA

Well, it's just over three weeks and long overdue for an update =P

I've pretty much cycled a full tank so far, did 355 odd kms with the gauge at 1/8th remaining.
Not too shabby for mainly urban driving with a few what moments to give it some heavier loads.

Total km count is now around 400km, so not doing too badly.

I'd forgotten what it was like to drive the FTO after a long period but I really did miss it.
Though if you've had a car as long as I've had mine, it really does become a part of you =)

Oh, and of course, I stalled the damn thing the first time I attempted to take off for my own shakedown drive (new low reciprocating mass engine & new clutch = need more right foot)

The lighter running gear is noticeable.
Even with just the low cam, the engine just wants to rev.
That does makes slow speed manoeuvring quite tricky, especially reversing (I tend to reverse park where I can).

Also need to play with the idle setup more as well, if I go to 0% throttle from moderate revs, the revs drop too quickly before the Haltech can respond and engine stalls out.
Same with cold starts and initial idle hunting. It's been pretty chilly overnight, probably means I need a higher idle while cold until things come up to temp.

We still have a lot of setup work to do.

Anyways, more kms to put on the clock before getting the fun stuff like E85 and high cams.
Feel free to throw any questions over.

I'm enjoying it thus far though, the linear nature of the power is amazing, and with the suspension setup that I've got, it's an absolute pleasure to drive.
Just love slow speed corners now, especially pulling out of one.
The sound also helps. That being said, can't wait to hear how the high lobe cutover sounds =)

Good work Eric, and Dave.
Do you know what power figures you're expecting yet and is it going to be more about an increase throughout the range and a nice curve or will it be a top-end improvement?

Any plans on doing something to the transmission?
I have a 4.625 final drive + the ratios from a Cyborg and it is a night and day difference. Stock FTO ratios are not very good

I would expect our power figures will show mostly gains in the top end, I don't foresee many gains in the low rpm, probably improve slightly with the E85 tune due to the very low ignition timing values on petrol but ultimatly our focus is midrange / top end especially when we turn on the high rpm cam profiles.

In some ways, not looking forward to the next level of tuning as I can see hours of time ahead playing with camshaft timing trying to balance idling and balancing the cylinders for airflow.

Great to hear back from Eric with his feedback so far - I think with the gears thats not a bad idea to check out but will need to see how it goes first with the high horsepower its going to have.

Side note - Eric drop through sometime and I will alter some idle speed settings to aid in it stalling and see transfer some of the self learning features across to the main map so that we pick up some more resolution. Should only take around 15 minutes.

Ahoy again.

Rob:
Dave's talking against our current numbers with the high lobe switching on.
I'm not sure if you've seen RPW's facebook post showing initial gains just on the low lobe over a tuned stock 6A12 with the same headers and exhaust setup as my car.
He's broken down on that post what's been done as well.
We've gotten an appreciable across the board bump mainly due to the raised CR, low lobes didn't get any aggressive changes.
Expecting a sizeable bump with the high rpm lobes though, especially on E85.

Spetz:
I'm intending to look at the drivetrain once we've established the torque curves of the engine once it's been tuned.
We're likely to raise the RPM limit as well, so that'll have an impact as well.

We have to realise with the stock gearbox, there's been a lot of compromises to keep costs down.
The manual tranny is the same across all FTO variants, so the ratios had to be able to work with the 4G93 as well.

I can't remember if the GS has an 8.2k redline as well.
I've played with the numbers for the manual ratios here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Includes RPM drop numbers at various engine speeds between upshifts.
8.2k redline 1st to 2nd gear drops the RPM just under peak torque output for a 4G93.

Also added cruise RPMs @ 60 & 100kph for both the std wheel/tyre setup and my current setup (225/45R17)
The compromises an engineer has to make when choosing the gearset =)

Something I'll have to do when the time comes.
It'll still need to be streetable for now, so I'll need to ratio 5th at a comfortable cruise RPM.

Dave:
I should be in this week then sometime then.
You'll have to tell me whether we managed to keep the dual length runner controls, I can't remember whether we did or not =)

We did not retain the duel length runner control but the manifold has internal ram tubes and other goodies with medium length runners but of course, that massive twin butterfly throttle body.

Low rpm camshaft lobes are somewhere between factory low rpm and factory high rpm lobes. Sort of equivalent to a stage 1 profile on a non Mivec engine for comparison sake.

Good news for other FTO owners though, I am working with Haltech now to make the Elite series compatible to control the variable runner manifold control unit to be able to provide full plug and play compatibility for all other Mivec owners. No more having to retain the stock ECU to control the intake manifold and Haltech to control everything else. Should get word back on that within the next week. I already have a customer who is waiting on me to make his Elite 2500 plug and play kit and we will be testing the variable intake manifold control on that vehicle.

Nice. Any plans for some nitrous?

And I agree with the gear ratio point too, pretty rubbish standard. How high are you guys looking to go with the rev limiter?

The RPM limit will be decided by the motor - wherever it makes peak HP plus 500 rpm will be where the rpm limiter is set.

I don't think Nitrous will be used for two reasons

(A) Incompatible with E85
(B) This is a circuit racing car - nitrous not allowed

Dave, considering the cam specs and other work you did to it, where do you speculate peak torque and power to be, and where do you expect the MIVEC changeover point?

What kind of power difference would you expect on 98 fuel?

What are the issues faced with Nitrous and E85? I did not know that

Although racecar is always good. From my own experience, definitely needs better gear ratios and LSD.

On factory tune as far as I know we stop making power at around the 7k mark although I suppose with a tune and all that you guys will be better off than that.

I would guess Mivec changeover point wouldn't change all that much as it has been tested before and it's pretty much where it needs to be from factory, but then again, cams...

Oops, I'm actually running 215/45R17.
Adjusted spreadsheet to reflect that.
Also added road speed columns at 8.2k rpm

I'm going to spend some time later tinkering with gear and FD ratios, I've duplicated a tab to start mucking around.
Will look at stock 6a12 mivec max torque and power figures and their RPMs and play around those values.

Might have to do some simulation craft and load up Gran Turismo with a stock FTO with a race box and play around =)

LSD is covered, my base is a vR

As you've pointed out, optimal lobe changeover point is going to change due changing of the cams.
We'll need to do power runs for both lobes and figure out a good crossover point.

spetz wrote:Dave, considering the cam specs and other work you did to it, where do you speculate peak torque and power to be, and where do you expect the MIVEC changeover point?

What kind of power difference would you expect on 98 fuel?

To be honest no idea - but seeing how the motor is responding so far, I would estimate on a 98 tune it will pick up around anothe 20 - 30hp with the high rpm cams. I don't seriously intend to push it super hard on 98 to be honest as the ultra high compression makes it very sensitive to detonation on the low octane fuel.

Due to the vast number of mods to the engine, camshafts, compression, oversize valves, manifold changes etc I have no idea at all what is going to happen with peak points, changeover of mivec etc. This engine could theoretically rev all the way out to 9500 rpm. I always knew the basic mods were going to to work, but to what extent I was unsure. From what I see so far on the dyno curve, I expect the mivec switch over point will be similar to the 4G92 mivec engines and raised to somewhere around the 6500 rpm range due to the much higher lift / duration of the current low speed cams.

Daniel2019 wrote:What are the issues faced with Nitrous and E85? I did not know that

Although racecar is always good. From my own experience, definitely needs better gear ratios and LSD.

On factory tune as far as I know we stop making power at around the 7k mark although I suppose with a tune and all that you guys will be better off than that.

I would guess Mivec changeover point wouldn't change all that much as it has been tested before and it's pretty much where it needs to be from factory, but then again, cams...

Nitrous is a highly oxygenated product which is why it burns so hot and fast.

E85 is also a very highly oxygenated fuel and as such requires large volumes of fuel to burn equivalent to normal petrol.

Add two highly oxygenated products together means you have a blow torch effect and can burn / melt the piston as air moves faster than fuel. You would have to add very large amount of fuel correction before you got control.

That is why most nitrous vehicles running more than a 50hp shot use a Nitrous leaded specific fuel which is very "Rich" requiring smaller jet sizes in comparison to normal petrol.

Adding onto Dave's comments, we're in uncharted territory and I went in wanting to see how far we could push a high strung 6a12 staying in the 2ltr class.

So there's a bit of discovery to be had.


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MADFTO wrote:Adding onto Dave's comments, we're in uncharted territory and I went in wanting to see how far we could push a high strung 6a12 staying in the 2ltr class.

So there's a bit of discovery to be had.

Looking forward to driving vids!

Excuse my ignorance re racing classes etc, is the 2.0 class an NA class too or is it just an engine size restriction?
I'm speculating that your car should do rather well once finished if it's going up against other 2.0 NA cars, and I know it's not all engine and car for that matter so race school?
Very interested to see the final result.

Improved production has several classes which

The 2.0 class is either up to maximum of a 2.0 naturally aspirated or a smaller 1.3 / 1.5 litre engine with turbocharger.

Typically turbocharged engines have a 1.7 X multiplier to work out which class it races in.

I believe turbocharged vehicles also run a restrictor on the front of the turbo depending upon the class they are racing under.

I think the under 2.0L class can be exceedingly competitive considering Civics with K20 swaps

2.0L and under class is competitive, yes, but if not you will be running against Evos and Skylines. It also depends on what club/state rules you are racing under.

anymore updates?