Standard brakes??? How good?

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:51 pm

I am experiencing problems with my brakes...

It stops well if I am going under 120km/h.

Anything over and they start almost griding but not... they get very rough and feel like they bloat up and don't stop well.

At speeds of 170+ km/h if I press them they are very weak, make the whole car vibrate and do not stop well.

I was told the brake pads I have are not made for high temperatures and what I need to do is get some good brake pads that can withstand high temp use.

How true is this? Once again these are not my original brakes and were installed by the mechanic which told me this. I have a feeling he may be lying just so he doesn't have to fix them.

Post by **smorison** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:19 pm

RB74's from race brake's i will recommend every single time... a bit dusty but brilliant pads even on the race track...

also you will probably benefit from a brake fluid replacement ... i think you'll find the fluids pretty bad...

no need to upgrade the callipers unless you want to spend a large amount of time on the race track (i'm still running standard gpx callipers but will be upgrading shortly)

afterburner · Post by **afterburner** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:07 am

Well the brakes on my car are very similar to those on the Evo III and the 92-96 Galant VR-4. And on my previous VR-4 they were fine with a simple pad and fluid upgrade - stopped great every time, even after multiple laps of a racetrack. And this is a 1500kg car. So I would suspect that, like mentioned above, unless you are really hard on them they should be fine. I also think a fluid replacement/upgrade would do wonders...

Luca · Post by **Luca** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:19 am

Hey Spets,

I agree with Steve and afterburner. The standard pads are not the best for the FTO because of the high temperatures involved. They deposit on the rotors causing the shuddering that you are experiencing. You do not need to upgrade your calipers, as they are more than sufficient unless you do lots of track work. Also fluid replacement is always the cheapest place to start, and the results are often suprising.

Part of the problem is also the standard rotors. The standard rotors are not the best at high duty load either. They seem to hold too much heat, exaserbating the problem.

A great read if you want to familiarise yourself with braking myths etc is: http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/war ... s_myth.htm

I also used to have the same problem as you are experiencing. What I did was to put RB74 pads on the standard calipers (front and rear), then upgrade the rotors to DBA 4000s on the front and slotted golds on the rear. Now the 4000s are overkill unless you work your brakes really hard, but I like being a bit on the excessive side, when I'm upgrading things that contribute to my safety

I use this configuration for both my street driving, and on the track. The only problems I find are with the RB74 pads:
- Excessive dusting (wheels require cleaning every fortnight)
- Noise (pads are noisy when cold, and always squeek in the last meter of stopping)
- Under extreme load, the pads glaze which caused biting (only ever occured once from prolonged track use)

These can all be fixed by pad selection. A great forum for getting peoples opinions on pads and rotors is MRT Rally Forums

If you would like photos, or more info on anything, don't hesitate to ask.

Anyway ... sorry for the long winded response, but I hope this helps.

Cheers,
Luca

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:52 am

Thanks for all the advice,

Keep in mind guys that I have a car about 150kg lighter than an FTO so these brakes really should stop quite well!

The pads as it is make a lot of dust, 100km of driving gets the wheels all black!

Luca, I have considered what you have done but I am thinking it still wont be enough braking and it'll just be wasted money. I am more thinking now to upgrade to 4 piston 300mm rotors or so.

Also I found out today that my wheel bearing is stuff and may be creating this shuddering.

PS. The brake fluid is only about 4000km old (along with everything else)

afterburner · Post by **afterburner** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:38 am

spetz wrote:The pads as it is make a lot of dust, 100km of driving gets the wheels all black!

Ahh the curse of aftermarket pads. I have the same problem - my wheels are VERY dirty at the moment - it doesn't help that they are white to start with. Its funny, every aftermarket brake pad manufacturer claims that their pads are 'low dust' or 'dustless', but they never are

Why can't someone make a white compound brake pad?

Luca · Post by **Luca** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:03 am

Lol ... coloured pads ... you'd make a killing on them!

... I'll have Aluminium colour please

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:48 am

How much better are the DBA rotors to standard when it comes to heating up?
I was also told DBA are exactly the same as RDA but RDA is about half the price. How true is this?

Luca · Post by **Luca** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:37 am

How much better in comparison to....

The only comparison I can give is between the standard rotors and the DBA 4000s.

The DBA 4000s have three painted markers which changes colour at various temperatures.
Green 458 deg
Orange 550 deg
Red 630 deg

After half an hour of me driving at 90% around Oran Park south, I just managed to tweak the orange marker, but within two minutes of stopping is was back below that.

I also did 4 braking tests from 160-0 on consecutive laps at max braking with trackion control. Not a problem.

Under these conditions the brakes were still pulling up just as hard as when I first started. I never noticed brake fade, brake shudder, or brake inconsistancy.

The third I attribute to the ability of these rotors to cool off quicker than the standard ones. As I have boiled the the brake fluid on the standard rotors before, but never on the DBAs.

The only problem I had after the track day, was my front right RB74 pad which had glazed slightly and was causing biting on normal road driving. This was easy to fix as I took the pad off and gave it a light brushing with some sandpaper.

In contrast, brake fade on the standard GPX rotors was noticable with heavy road driving. something as simple as a hard run along the Old Pacific highway would case brake shudder and fade.

In my non expert opinion, I think these rotors are fantastic, I have not yet been able to push them past their limits. They are massively better than the stock rotors and pads. They are the best performance mod I have done to the car.

I would also highly recommend the 4000s though over the standard slotted DBAs as they are supposed to have superior cooling abilities. If the rotors cool better there will be less heat transferance to the caliper pots, so less effect on the brake fluid. (Note: this is not a known fact but my gut instinct combined with what I have read)

Also if you're going to buy new rotors anyway, why not spend a few dollars more to get higher quality ones.

I hope this helps. Happy to answer any more questions you might have.

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:17 pm

Thanks for the detailed review man,

I wasn't going to change the standard rotors to other standard ones. I just think that the standard ones just aren't good enough. Either that or mine are stuffed.

Because with a full loaded car braking on a downhill from as little as 90-100km/h I feel I have to press the brakes considerably harder than normal.
So the question really was, spend money on DBA rotors etc or just spend a bit more on a complete brake upgrade (larger rotors, calipers etc)

Luca · Post by **Luca** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:39 pm

Hmmm... I wish I could answer that one for you mate. But the truth is I have never done the latter.

All I can say is that DBA rotors and race pads are more than sufficient for my ability to throw my car around a track. So for me there was no need to go further.

Having said that I'm not a racing car driver

... and I fear that at 29 I'm too old now to start

... any of you turboed racing pros out there with opinions on this ... Jeff, Dannyboyau?

spetz · Post by **spetz** » Sun May 01, 2005 1:00 am

How much did the brake setup cost you??

I just don't know if they will do the job. In canberra the roads are long, wide and smooth with no traffic, I hit my speed limiter more or less weekly so I do need fairly good brakes

Luca · Post by **Luca** » Mon May 02, 2005 11:22 am

RB74 front pads cost $158 for both sides
Comp2 rear pads cost $145 for both sides
DBA 4000 series slotted wiper front rotors (part #'s:4425SL & 4425SR) cost $158 each
DBA longlife slotted rear rotors (part #'s:547SL & 547SR) cost $112 each

Total cost: $843

Having said that, my girlfriends dad was able to get the rotors at trade price, I paid retail for the pads, and we fitted them ourselves.

Oh ... and I hate the Mitsi rear hand brake assembly which lock the rotors. there is no need to design something that awkward. It's not difficult, just really really annoying

wildfaye · Post by **wildfaye** » Mon May 02, 2005 3:01 pm

Luca wrote:DBA 4000 series slotted wiper front rotors (part #'s:4425SL & 4425SR) cost $158 each

http://www.dba.com.au/default.asp

Hey Luca, which ones are those u bought?

the 4000 6x6 wipers at e lower center of the page?

btw, are those kangaroo paws as well?

cheers!
sam

mxysxy · Post by **mxysxy** » Mon May 02, 2005 3:11 pm

I wanna get that DBA Slotted and RB74 race pads as well.

Luca · Post by **Luca** » Mon May 02, 2005 3:37 pm

Hey Sam and others,

Yes the bottom middle are the ones I have on the front. Mine are not kangaroo paw, as they were still upgrading their product lines when I bought them. However it is my understanding that the ones sold even as little as two months after I bought mine were kangaroo paw....doh.

Either way the cooling without the kangaroo paw is sufficient for me. But do ask that question if you are looking at buying them, because it will help your decision making.

The top right is what I have on the rear. But note that the rear rotors on the FTO are not thick enough to be ventilated. They are solid rotors. But this does not seem to affect them much, as the fronts with the ventilation are always much hotter than the solid rears anyway.

Want some pics?

FTO338 · Post by **FTO338** » Mon May 02, 2005 3:47 pm

Dam Luca, you got those 4000 rotor cheap. I've got the gold series, & compare to the standard rotor its only better on high speed, there isn't any different at normal day to day driving. & thats when i was running Endless pad as well.

wildfaye · Post by **wildfaye** » Mon May 02, 2005 3:54 pm

Its okie Luca, no need piccys...

i got the standard slotted for both front n rears now...

thinking of upgrading the front to what u just got, pref with e kangaroos...
but i need to find someone who can bring them into Singapore for me...
cos i chucked them (4pcs front/rear) in my baggage from perth 2yrs ago

if i cant, i gotta fly back to perth for a break n source for those juicy kang paws...slurpy...

u got them at a really good price...i hope i can get some like urs too...

besides e rotors i got now, i got project mu 500 pads front, dot 5.1 and stainless steel hoses, works like magic.

i think i gotta make some brake air ducts for those fronts, cos they really do heat up...

Luca · Post by **Luca** » Mon May 02, 2005 4:27 pm

Yeah I was happy with the price too

Well there is a few of us then with DBA rotors. Does anyone have a comparison between different pads on DBA rotors? I've only used RB74 and Comp2 pads on my rotors, so I have no basis for comparing different brands of pads.

Bummer about being in Singapore, something that heavy will be expensive to ship, too. Maybe someone else in the club can help out here...anyone?

I can just see the look on the face of X-ray detector staff at the airport.

'So you're telling me you have a 4, 5 kilo steel frisbees in your luggage'

That would have been an experience for you

Post by **smorison** » Mon May 02, 2005 5:14 pm

wildfaye wrote: i think i gotta make some brake air ducts for those fronts, cos they really do heat up...

i haven't been able to come up with a decent design yet so if you do please send me a copy... its one area i know that my setup needs a bit of work...