Super Sound System.Not enough power!!! Any Solutions????????

FtoSam · Post by **FtoSam** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:04 pm

Hi. I am just about to upgrade my Sound system. In a BIG way. I am going From a 15" Sony Xplod (300WRMS) & 15" US Audio Godzilla DVC (500WRMS) run off a BOSS 1200w (Peak) Amp. My new system consists of 3x 12" Audiobahn Immortal 2000WRMS Subs with 3x 2000WRMS Audiobahn Mono-Block Digital Amps. Also Getting MB Quartz PCE Front Splits And PCE 6x9" Rears run off an Amp of around 400WRMS of which i have not chosen yet. I will also throw in a 25 or 50 Farad Capacitor for good measure. Now i have a 95 Mivec GPX with a 75A Alternator if im told correctly. Now to power these amps (6000WRMS) Im going to need a Muther F**kload of power. A Dual battery system is most likely so far with many people telling me that a "Ranger" System used commonly in 4WDs is the way to go. But i feel so srry for the poor bastard Alternator. Has anyone ever done a dual Alternator System on an FTO??? I know they have a special Pin just for MIVEC which makes them Pretty Frucken Expensive... And considering i Want one up over 110Amps I would like to get a more standardised one that would be cheaper.My friend tried telling me about making a custom bracket off the air conditioner pump or something... If this is possible i would not need an alternator with a mivec pin??? And i could use the custom alternator to provide power for the sound system.. Anyone able to help???? Does anyone have a system this powerful??? If so how do you handle the power requirements???

FTOluv · Post by **FTOluv** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:31 pm

god damn dude!! thats some serious power. U realise a system like that cant be pumped on a daily basis. U would have to have a 150Amp alternator with 2 batteries with 40Farad capacitor.
Post up pics of yr three 12" subs. Im curious to see how they set it up in yr boot. I assume it would be the same way they did it in mine.

scarecrow · Post by **scarecrow** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:41 pm

Wow! Also, ditch the 6x9's for another set of splits up the back, your going to have plenty of bass already. You might want to hardwire some switches in so that you don't have to run all the subs constantly.

FtoSam · Post by **FtoSam** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:42 pm

Been talking to car audio specialist. Downgrading to only 2 subs and 2 amps... He said that those 2 will be pushing the physical limits of the car(ie. Windscreen and windows and welding) So i couldn't use the power of the 3rd sub anyway... I will post up some pics of when it is all finished as well as some "In Construction" Pics... Local sound off in 3 weeks... The race is on....

FTOluv · Post by **FTOluv** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:47 am

oh dang, i was hoping to see another 3 x 12" sub setup in a FTO

Dr_Jones · Post by **Dr_Jones** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:07 pm

Can I just make a few points and observations, now I'm a little out of the car audio game of late but used to be into quite a bit.

Why on earth were you running two different kinds of sub in your original setup, doesn't really matter now because you are upgrading.

What's a digital amp??? No such thing, class D does not mean digital in the true sense.

50 farad capacitor why on earth? How much current do the two class D amps draw at their peak, add the current draw of the one amp that may actually pull a bit and I think you'll be ok with the standard system.

Unless you are planning on having this all running full bore whenever your in the car then I don't see the need to go to all this trouble. With traditional amps you would need over 300 amps on tap plus leftover for the acutal function of the car, but with class d you should be ok, I can't find any good info on those audiobahn amps.

Tell me more.

Dr_Jones · Post by **Dr_Jones** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:14 pm

Just too add something else too, those woofers have a 2 ohm VC yes? Why not just run two of them in parralell off one Class d amp, you'll get 2000wrms to each woofer although dampening will be affected a little. This instead of the 3000 that you'd get running the two amps with a two ohm load, how much power do you need?

FTOluv · Post by **FTOluv** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:58 pm

Dr Jones, do u understand how much he will be pumping into those?!?! He NEEDS a 50 FARAD cap!! 6000WRMS is no joke mate. I had 1000WRMS in my FTO system with a big heavy duty battery and my system was sucking everything ounce of energy inside the car! 1000WRMS is the maximum u can get away with by not having a capacitor.
A digital amp is quite a new thing on the market, only been out for a couple of years now. The major difference between a normal and a digital is that the digital is more efficient on how it runs and the output it actually puts out. A 1000WRMS digital amp will always put out more power than a 1000WRMS standard amp.
I personally wouldnt go for a with that much bass because the FTO chassis is just gonna rattle its head off and u would have to use a shitload of sound deadening which will make the car heavy and is very expensive.
But if u got the money then why not!

Dr_Jones · Post by **Dr_Jones** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:47 pm

Erm where do I start, a cap does not provide power it stores power during times it's not needed and provides a bit of extra grunt during more intense transients in the source.

There is NO SUCH thing as a digital amp, the d does not mean digital althoug it sounds good to easily influenced customers and provides great material for salepersons. Sure there are some similarities as to how they work but it's not digital.

During day to day stereo use with 1000watts the maximum current you would have been using is just over 70amps that's the MAXIMUM, that's assuming you were using traditional amplification and not class d.

Please explain how 1000 watts rms is not 1000 watts rms just because of the amp design, a Class D amp (not digital) is more efficient but it doesnt mean that its power output is more, it means it makes the rated power output with less input power and of course heat. To achieve the same output a traditional amp design needs more input power and of course more heat as a side effect to make the same rated power.

All sounds like salesperson brainwashing to me, anyhoo I'm off to work.

FTOluv · Post by **FTOluv** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:02 am

i never said the cap provides more power, but i should have made it more clear it needs it in order to STORE the power.

My best mate is the head technical car audio advisor for Blaupunkt and they have a couple of digital amps in their range and so do a few other brands. In regards to the class D im not too sure about that but the digital amp has less power loss in its transfer to the subs and thats why it effectively has more power than a standard amp and thats also why i mean its more efficient.

Dr_Jones · Post by **Dr_Jones** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:50 am

We are talking about the same thing here Class D is what you are talking about and it's often referred to as Digital, however as I said earlier it is similar but not the same, it's like calling a switchmode power supply a digital power supply. Slapping the digital tag on something is a great marketing ploy as it makes us think it's better. Don't get me wrong they are very efficient as we have both pointed out.

Hell if I take a crappy old datsun and get a sticker that says SUPER SPORTS it doesn't make it a sports car. Sure the amp may have digital written on but hey. All these amps have analogue inputs and analogue outputs and no Analogue to digital converters so how they are digital is beyond me.

As for the power output being more, a class d will make more with less that's all, if both do the same then the power output is the same, even if the class a etc needs three times more power to do it.

An F1 car and a fighter jet line up and both do a quarter mile in say 5 seconds (probably not accurate) now they both did it in 5 seconds despite the vast difference in the way they achieved it.

Back on topic I'd really like to know the maximum current draw for the two class D Audiobahns and then we may be able to provide more info.

FTOluv · Post by **FTOluv** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:40 am

hold on, i never said it gives a digital signal for sound

. Im talking about power transfer and its efficiency.

I would love to see this system run for more than a week with a standard alternator because i think thats absolute rubbish advice that was given to u Samson. Unless yr only planning to play yr system for a minute a day upgrade yr alternator.

Dr_Jones · Post by **Dr_Jones** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:43 pm

FTOluv wrote:hold on, i never said it gives a digital signal for sound . Im talking about power transfer and its efficiency.

This is the sort of garbage that car audio sites link to in their forums and say "look at these guys they have no idea." Do tell me and the rest of the world about digital power transfer???? Also can you tell me what exactly is digital about these amps, *insert buzzword here*.

Now I can guarentee you that it would run for a week with a decent battery and if it was listened to at normal level. Any person that's worried about reaching the limits of the car such as the windscreen and welds should question how they are going to hold up too, unless of course you like your ears ringing.

Anyway advice, buy biggest battery you can, go with one class d and your other amp for splits etc, you can run the two woofers off the one class d (the model you speak of anyway) Try it and see, what's the worst that can happen. Hell if it doesn't work at all then go and look at dual batteries - although you still need to charge them! I'm not sure about your FTO but mine seems to be flat out fitting the standard alternator in without trying to worry about a second one.

FTO338 · Post by **FTO338** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:49 pm

Oh man this is good stuff, well i mean the info, even thought is a hot debate, all these info wouldn't be out unless we have this "Paper Soundoff Comp" ehheee

Just don't get too hot headed like what i did in the past

mmmmmmkkkkk

FtoSam · Post by **FtoSam** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:44 pm

Thanks for all the advice guys.. Although a bit all over the place.. This is what im currently going for:
1x Audiobahn 2000WRMS Mono Block (Will upgrade to 2 if i think it could use it)
2x 12" 2000WRMS QVC Subs
1x 1 Farad Charging Capacitor (2 If i get 2nd Amp)
1x 1000+ CCA Dry Cell Battery (To Run One (Or Both) Mono-Block Amps)
1x Stock Battery ( Run Car and 4-ch Amp)
1x Pair Of Soundstream 6x9" 4 ways (Already In)
1x Pair of MbQuartz PCE 6.5" Splits
1x 4 ch Amp (Round 100-150WRMS Per CH)
NOw im not a Newbie to Car Audio. I have had several different systems over the years. (Usually 1x12 or 1x15.. Never anything comp worthy) But this system mainly has me worried as i have never had a need for an alt upgrade or a cap. My last system had a 600CCA Battery Running it. And it was just coping. It was only about 500WRMS And this new system will be more like 2500Wrms (or 4500Wrms for 2 amps)... A dedicated Battery Will Help and a Charging Cap will also be good...Any Other Suggestions????

Dr_Jones · Post by **Dr_Jones** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:55 pm

Maybe ditch the 6x9s and run the front splits actively off all 4 channels? Either that or maybe high pass the 6x9's to keep the sound stage up front.

FTOluv · Post by **FTOluv** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:43 pm

To run that system u would definately need 2 batteries but u also need a better alternator. If would just a matter of time before u alternators craps itself and yr force to get another one. That will also crap itself if the new alternator isnt more than 120amps.

Anyway advice, buy biggest battery you can, go with one class d and your other amp for splits etc, you can run the two woofers off the one class d (the model you speak of anyway) Try it and see, what's the worst that can happen. Hell if it doesn't work at all then go and look at dual batteries - although you still need to charge them! I'm not sure about your FTO but mine seems to be flat out fitting the standard alternator in without trying to worry about a second one.

Dr Jones, u dont seem to understand how much power Samson will be running and what is required to keep his system AND car running at the same time!

He definately needs 2 batteries and he can get away for a short time with the standard alternator.

Dr_Jones · Post by **Dr_Jones** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:14 pm

I think we just have a difference of opinion, you do understand that the louder the system is playing the more current will be drawn, so if you're listening at a moderate level most of the time, there is no need for 300 odd amps of current. As I said above the maximum current this system could draw is well over 300 amps at it's peak.

I rest my case as we both have valid points I think.

SchumieFan · Post by **SchumieFan** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:29 am

i like noise

Post by **Bennoz** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:48 am

SchumieFan wrote:i like noise

I do too