FTO AUSTRALIA

I have signed up to this forum for the purpose of gathering images of engine bays/motors, and for info specific to the 6A12 MIVEC motor.
I do not have an FTO, nor do i intend to get one.

I'll be using the motor in another car.
It was not my first choice, i was looking at a Cosworth Duratec, however the price, for a high tuned motor, complete with quad roller barrel throttles, was a little high, considering it makes 220HP, and I'd still need ecu, gearbox, etc, etc.. you get the picture.

And so I'm brought to the 6A12..
It fits my requirements, 200hp stock, room for more, low capacity, multi cylinder.. capable of almost ferrari-like noises!..

The only downside is the weight.. Duratec is about 90-95kg..
I dare say the 6A12 is a bit more..


Any idea on engine weight, without any ancillaries??
The block.. iron or alloy?
I read somewhere that the "A" in the engine code means alloy block, but i'm sure they're iron...

How difficult are they to tune to about 240-250hp at the flywheel?

Thanks..

Clint

To add some more...
Am i better off buying a non-mivec 6A12, and adding cams, intake, exhaust, the usual?
Will the right combo of mods to the non mivec produce the same power as the mivec, considering that mods to the mivec version also centre around the hi rpm performance?

We all know that the motors with variable cam timing were made as a means of passing emissions/drivability on low cam, and more punch on high cam.. when out having fun, we keep it in the rev range that keeps it on high cam anyways, so is the non mivec, with suitable performance cams, a better option??

LSD.. comes in GPX and GPvR, right?
So, chase down this box, or add aftermarket LSD to whatever box i get?

Aftermarket management..?
What brands have a good rep? Full aftermarket, no piggy back stuff..
Thinking AUTRONIC SMC or SM2..

Hi Clint,

Im might be able to shed some light on some of the questions.

Fairly sure its an iron block. The issue you'll come across with the 6A12 is the lack of aftermarket 'go fast' parts. For instance, for a Honda B18C motor (Integra VTEC YO!!!!! engine) you could walk into any performance shop & buy a pre-ported intake manifold, ported heads, a set of hot cams, an intake system & full extractor setup off the shelf...While we can get extractors, thats about it. We make our own cold air intakes, we have to port our own heads and manifolds & there's no such thing as a hot cam for the 6A12.... there is a shop that claims to have developed one for both the Mivec & non Mivec versions, but Im yet to see or hear of any conclusive proof.

Just to convert your hp figures, most measurements bandied about here are at the wheel Kilowatts. A standard manual Mivec engine will produce about 95kws at the wheels, a non mivec about 85kws. Some of the more highly tuned motors in our community are seeing 125ish kws at the wheels (168 odd HP at the wheels - so add a 1/3 to give you approx 225hp at the flywheel.) To get those figures most folk have free breathing intake & exhausts, then some form of piggyback ECU. We tend to lean to towards piggybacks here when the engine is staying in an FTO so's not to loose some of the driveability the stock ECU retains - which wont bother you if its not going into an FTO.

With a little more top end work on the motor, such as porting & decking the heads to bring up compression, I'd imagine you'd see 250 flywheel hp without too much expense. Im currently running a non mivec motor that makes around 130kws at the wheel - then have a 100hp shot of nos ontop (standard internals too.)

The 2 motors (Mivec vs Non Mivec) are quite different on the top end as you'd imagine. Most of us here who are looking for big power - such as turbo charging, super charging or nitrous tend to go for the non Mivec. Its proven to be a more robust motor. The Mivec engine tends to suffer from bottom end failures when flogged too hard. As the Mivec system in these motors is a hydraulic / mechanical combination, it activates oil solenoids at 5,500 rpm or there abouts, which inturn forced oil into the rocker assemblies & push out little pins which lock the hi cam lobe arms into place - when activated this can see an oil starvation issue at the bottom end.

The other issue you may face with a Mivec engine will be the standalone ECU & wiring loom combo to make the mivec system work. We have got guys here who have turbo'ed mivecs & had standalone systems in them, but the wiring & setup of it has always been a nightmare.

If you went for a non mivec, any ECU would do, Haltech, Autronic, Wolf etc we've all seen them working on various incarnations of the non mivec 6A12 here.

The LSD you're after - only comes in the GPvR and the 1994 Limited edition 'Car of the Year' GPX's. So not easy to source. Alternatively, there are plenty of aftermarket diffs available, Cusco, Kaze, Quaiffe all make units to fit the F5M42 gearbox (FTO 5 spd manual box)

Hope that helps!

Well that was one of the most, thought out, insightful post i have read on this sight and I actually totally agree lol. Well done Ben.

Theres not much i can add to that but ill try

Mate before you go any further ask yourself some questions the first 2 are

What is it going into?
and
What kws(hp) are you wanting?

Because as ben said there are many other engines that more suit massive power than a 6A12. For a custom job id be looking at EVO/Skyline/200sx engines before i touched a 6A12. You have to look at the ability to source off the shelf performance parts and as ben said the 6A12 does not have many.

I'm after 2L motor, or thereabouts, as in nsw the regulations for engine size in conversions are limited by weight of car, and my car has bugger all weight..

Requirements:
about 2L or so..
4 or V6 (prefer the low capacity V6 for the sound they (can) make!!
Capable of an 8000-9000rpm limit
Ability to make approx 250hp at flywheel..
N/A (this is a must!! throttle response!!)
MANUAL box
TRANSVERSE (ie, FF or MR set up) will be used as MR

Now, with porting..
I'm also into bikes..
In some literature i've read in the past, smaller, specifically shapede ports can assist to get more flow into the combustion chamber than larger ports, a result of your idea of "porting"..
Match porting intake and exhaust will be done, as will I make my own headers and exhaust, I'll be fabricating my own intake.. multi throttle or plenum/tb, not sure yet.. am thinking triple throttles, one throat per 2 cylinders, use the triple throttle bodies from a triumph motorcycle..
Maybe shave/skim/deck (whatever you want to call it!) the heads to get some more compression, maybe 11 or 12:1..
Cams, Aftermarket ECU, careful and proper tuning.
The only ancillary causing drag will be the alternator.. nothing else.

With this in mind, am i better starting with MIVEC or non-mivec?
I mean, either will be tuned/modified to make as much pow1er as possible at the mid to upper end of the rev range.. so we really only care about the high lobe of the MIVEC cams anyway...
Will the same mods to both motors produce equal results? Or will MIVEC triumph? If so, WHY?

Oh, it is going into a 97 Series1 Lotus Elise

Clint

Rotorary or 2zzge engine.

Personally i think the 6A12 is the worst engine conversion you could possibly do

Why the worst..?

It gives capacity I'm after, the sound, a good amount of power to build on with a few mods..? Why the worst..?

Rotary.. no chance.. don't like them, and, i don't like the chances of finding a transverse box to suit..
2ZZ.. these motors are used in the series 2 elise and exige..

Nah.. i like the idea of the 6A12..

The only downside i can think of is weight...

2ZZ.. these motors are used in the series 2 elise and exige..

Exactly, my point or at least 3S-GE 160HP straight out of the box with no modifications.

It sounds like yourve made your mind up so good luck. I just think you will be hugely dissapointed with what you can extract out of the 6A12 and if i was about to spend the amount of money you are on a conversion 6A12 would not be anywhere close.

Why the worst..?

As stated in bens first post then again in mine. No ones FTO comes close to the figures your wanting without turbo charging or NOS'ing. And nothing is off the shelf except extractors. And then later on down the track if you want to turbo or super charge it, your gonna have a whole nother set of problems that you would not have going for another engine.

project111 wrote: Capable of an 8000-9000rpm limit
Ability to make approx 250hp at flywheel..
N/A (this is a must!! throttle response!!)

Only 2L engine i know of to do this is a 6A12 with a small (GT20? / GT22?) turbo, and light engine tuning (cams, extractors, Pod filter..etc).
Don't worry, a small turbo will diminish the throttle response on a mivec about.. 6% maximum?

Think about this:
6A12 - Tuned to produce about 210hp, 9500RPM (rev limiter)
GT22 Turbo running about 12Psi
That would yield about 260hp with good tuning, while having great engine response and sounding like an FTO (Ferrari = under FTO in terms of sound).

Ok, so what sort of power figure are we talking for a well tuned 6A12 N/A motor?

The stock K motor in the Elise makes 118hp at the flywheel, so even a stock 6A12 will be almost double that figure...

Does anyone have a ballpark figure for the weight of 6A12??
100kg?? 110kg??

I'm thinking, a motor with a weight increase of up to 20-30kg will be ok..

Lots of the Elise crew are using Honda K20A.. they are about 20kg heavier..

If i go 3SGE (another consideration) it would have to be the BEAMS motor.

Again, the 6A12 provides the power, rev range, and sound i'm looking for to bring the Elise to where i want it..

Definitely no forced induction..
Just got back onto P licence after a 9 year ban... no forced induction..

I'm also no stranger to conversions, and custom engine parts..
My last car was an S13 Silvia with a VG30DET, with custom plenum, a lot of other custom stuff, trust turbo, and it made 350rwkW..
All built at home by myself...

I'll make you a deal.

We swap cars and then you have the sound you want

Serriously though, once you have made these custom parts you are talking about, would it be possible for you to make extras for the rest of us

the_msta_chizz wrote: Think about this:
6A12 - Tuned to produce about 210hp, 9500RPM (rev limiter)
GT22 Turbo running about 12Psi
That would yield about 260hp with good tuning, while having great engine response and sounding like an FTO (Ferrari = under FTO in terms of sound).

Fto's should only be revved to 8,000rpm unless you do some serious valvetrain upgrades and lighten a lot of parts... and most of that is wasted anyway...

Turbo'ing it with a Gt22 is going to be near pointless... it will give a whack of torque down low, but be out of puff by 5,000rpm and give you the next 3,000rpm to redline, with sweet fk all power...

Then, a standard 6a12 will not handle 12psi... not by any stretch...

I am currently running 12psi in mine... with 8:1 compression, completely forged internals, Bigger injectors, stand alone ecu, custom cams, bord and honed block... etc etc...

And then 12 psi should give figures around the 300hp ATW mark...

And even if he ran 5-7psi (should be 230hp or so) its going to be putting a lot of strain on the engine, and the rings probably wont last too long...


On Topic:
I say go for it... a 6a12 is a horn sounding engine... and if 120kw atw is enough for you to be happy with, then go for it... If you want more than that, dont bother...

Keep us informed

Supplanter wrote:would it be possible for you to make extras for the rest of us

IF I end up going with 6A12, i would have templates of any custom bits, able to be fabricated for you, yes.
BUT.. i doubt much of what I'd do would suit.. considering dirrerent engine bay space, and location, except maybe plans/templates for triple throttle bodies, if they work well...

Comments have made me think though, am considering:
6A12
3S-GE BEAMS
2ZZ-GE

Whatever i go with, I'll be making headers/exhaust, and likely custom inlet, whether it be multiple throttle, or just a custom plenum, i'm yet to decide, dependent on engine chosen.

Nobody has a ballpark figure on 6A12 engine weight..?

project111 wrote:

Supplanter wrote:would it be possible for you to make extras for the rest of us

IF I end up going with 6A12, i would have templates of any custom bits, able to be fabricated for you, yes.
BUT.. i doubt much of what I'd do would suit.. considering dirrerent engine bay space, and location, except maybe plans/templates for triple throttle bodies, if they work well...

Comments have made me think though, am considering:
6A12
3S-GE BEAMS
2ZZ-GE

Whatever i go with, I'll be making headers/exhaust, and likely custom inlet, whether it be multiple throttle, or just a custom plenum, i'm yet to decide, dependent on engine chosen.

Nobody has a ballpark figure on 6A12 engine weight..?

The entire car weighs about 1200kg,
about 55-56% of the weight is at the front of it.
The engine cannot be too heavy.especially when you take into consideration the diffs, axles..etc.

I am sure engine weight has been mentioned here before.

Id say approximately 145-150 kg. It is all iron after all

id be guessing double that

150kg would be about right.

well i had a quick look at the specs in the manaul and it said rear of the car 600 and front 950 so im guessing with out the engine the front and rear would be close to the same weight. So that would make it rear 600 front 600 leaving round 300 odd kgs. As stated this is a one a guess