Fan Belt Issues again (air-con/ power steering) please help

[Taeivon_Rep]

G'day to all,

well yesterday my 7th (yes that is seventh) fan belt jumped out of it's track started shredding and fell off (first time for that) after barely 2 months since I fixed it last time.

Last time it took the crank angle sensor with thank god the fuse saved the ECU.

Anyway I'm really starting to get stuck with this. Through the seven replacements it has seen 4 different tensioners (the last one being stock from Mitsubishi oz after my mechanic ignored my request to let me ge tthe parts required, ouch) and it was a genuine belt it has destroyed.

The 4 mechanics that have touched have all said everything lines up and the tensioner has a normal amount of play considering the bearing design. One has mentioned his concern on one of the air-con bolts to the block and if it may have some play to it. But since checked that with another FTO and is no longer thinking that is a factor.

I'm pretty much and wits end and don't know what to do. I'll be getting under the car this arv and will post pics and a vid of the bearing play to maybe help someone with any ideas. Please help if you can.

dude i have and had same problem. replaced the idler pulley and it fixed nothing...
Do what i'm currently doing and u won't shred belts i haven't lost one after this idea yet.
What im using is a 4pk1065 belt, yes a 4 groove belt on the 6 groove pulleys. put the belt in the middle of all the pulleys it connects to.(make sure the line up and there is one free rung on either side not leaving it on one side.) It'll run great but tighten that sucker up good and u'll b right, be sure to check it every now and then and if it jumps to one side just loosen off and put it in the middle again. Because there is a gap between the belt and the edge there will be no rubbing or shredding!! hope this helps man its helped me, was on about my 6th belt before it from memory..

[Taeivon_Rep]

Ever tried driving an FTO with no power steering? Its painfully heavy! Almost un-driveably heavy.

Haha i got sick of replacing the belt one week so i just drove it for the week everyday without it. Was quite an experience. Kinda scary thought coz it seemed to wanna steer on its own when i gunned it! Guns of steel if u keep driving with no belt.. Never need to go to the gym again its like lifting weights and driving at the same time

[I8A4RE]

Ever tried driving an FTO with no power steering? Its painfully heavy! Almost un-driveably heavy.

Haha i got sick of replacing the belt one week so i just drove it for the week everyday without it.

[RallyMad]

G'day to all,

well yesterday my 7th (yes that is seventh) fan belt jumped out of it's track started shredding and fell off (first time for that) after barely 2 months since I fixed it last time.

Last time it took the crank angle sensor with thank god the fuse saved the ECU.

Anyway I'm really starting to get stuck with this. Through the seven replacements it has seen 4 different tensioners (the last one being stock from Mitsubishi oz after my mechanic ignored my request to let me ge tthe parts required, ouch) and it was a genuine belt it has destroyed.

The 4 mechanics that have touched have all said everything lines up and the tensioner has a normal amount of play considering the bearing design. One has mentioned his concern on one of the air-con bolts to the block and if it may have some play to it. But since checked that with another FTO and is no longer thinking that is a factor.

I'm pretty much and wits end and don't know what to do. I'll be getting under the car this arv and will post pics and a vid of the bearing play to maybe help someone with any ideas. Please help if you can.

dude i have and had same problem. replaced the idler pulley and it fixed nothing...
Do what i'm currently doing and you won't shred belts i haven't lost one after this idea yet.
What im using is a 4pk1065 belt, yes a 4 groove belt on the 6 groove pulleys. put the belt in the middle of all the pulleys it connects to.(make sure the line up and there is one free rung on either side not leaving it on one side.) It'll run great but tighten that sucker up good and you'll be right, be sure to check it every now and then and if it jumps to one side just loosen off and put it in the middle again. Because there is a gap between the belt and the edge there will be no rubbing or shredding!! hope this helps man its helped me, was on about my 6th belt before it from memory..

Thanks for that mate, it's been something we are keeping as a last resort. In my mind at least I figure it can't be anything beyond a pulley that is out of alignment or a done bearing as I8AFRE has said. So I'd always thought it had to be something out, At the moment I'm thinking it's a combination of the main crank pulley being not as far out from the motor and the newer idler pulleys that seem to sit further out from the motor (the bearing sticks out more). Might be an idea to try and source a main crank pulley of dstocks if this works for me and it might resolve your issues completely as well, save continuely having to check the belts, I know that drives me up the wall

I'll let you know how I get on over the next few months mate.

[Taeivon_Rep]

sounds good mate, pm me when if u solve it that way!

[Taeivon_Rep]

Thanks mate, All things crossed for the next few months to find out, last belt only lasted a month so I'll see, seems to be something more tangible than what we've tried in the past anyway.

Hows everything running with the new main crank pulley?
Im still using a 4pk belt with 1 extra rung each side so that if it jumps it don't fall off and shred but often still have to undo and redo pulley so wondering if urs is definately finally fixed now!

[RallyMad]

Wasn't a new main crank pulley mate. Was a second hand one of a spare motor my mechanic had. I think it's stuffed now. The last belt I put on only lasted 100kms.

I'm going to be taking up your idea no matter what now though, going to a 4pk belt and I'll see how it goes. I'm thinking the next step will be to track down a brand new crank pulley.

Though I'm waiting on some research my mechanic is doing at the moment. He's calling Japan service departments to get some help, the first thing they came back with was a stuffed water pump but the car is not having any water issues and as the pump is under the timing cover he thinks this is crap so he's trying for a second opinion.

So sorry mate, not finally fixed yet but I'll get back to you with what we decide to do next. Sorry for such a slack reply time as well.

[RallyMad]

UPDATE:

Okay so the last mechanic thought it was the p/s pump cause the pulley moved in and out about 3 or 4mm, this is crap. It is normal for all pumps to do this and they don't move at all when a tensioned belt is on it. Mine doesn't move at all even with a 4pk belt.

Although we think this movement is why the belt jumps over on the p/s pulley. If you look at it the harmonic balancer and air-con pulleys have much higher sidewalls, also with the p/s pulley having this movement in and out if there is sideways tension on the belt it forces it to jump over on this pulley due to the inherent movement in the pulley.


Which leads to what was discovered today. The tensioner is shot, it's got at leat 5mm of play in the bearing, that would do it. I'm going to be looking into fitting a commodore or falcon pulley for price and also the fact these pulleys have sides like our other pulleys and some are even channeled like our other pulleys. I'll let everyone know how I get on with this.

WARNING: Trying to explain stuff without pictures to come.....

You might wonder as I have why I keep going through tensioners (I have, this one was a genuine ($350 stupid mechanic who didn't trust that I could get parts cheap) pulley and only lasted 5 months and less than 1000km's. Though importantly the harmonic balancer was replaced about half way through this time.

If I go back to my previous thoughts I believe the old harmonic balancer had the belt sitting too close to the engine and put too much pressure on the inside edge of the newer tensioners and made them fail faster. I'll try and illustrate this with some pics actually, try to imagine these are parts not paint.



See with this that the combination of the older slimmer harmonic balancer and newer tensioner (that sits further out from the engine) would leave the belt sitting too close to the engine on the tensoiner which would fail under that stress. So I'm hoping that a new tensioner with the harmonic balancer I now have on will fix this. They do line up as it is now which is the second hand harmonic balancer which sits further out from the engine and the newer tensioner that also sits further out from the engine.

PLEASE NOTE: this is just my current idea, this may not be the case so please don't take any action on this until you have spoken to a mechanic, though the one I have talked to agrees with me. I'm about to get a second opinion though.

It's also important to point out that many people have had these newer tensioners fitted without a problem, I beleive that somewhere along the line my car got the incorrect harmonic balancer put on it and this has caused my problem and may also be the problem with other users that are having this problem (KJ_bob for example).

[RallyMad]

Scrap my last idea. On further inspection things got interesting. The tenionser is fine. It has about 1mm of play in it like all the tensioners I have seen. It just looked like a lot more than that up on the hoist but isn't when we measured it.

But we have found out more.

I got myself one of the older type tensioners (thanks Pete!) and ran it with the 4pk belt. WIth a quick drive around town the belt had moved across 2 grooves on the p/s pulley and air-con pulley but only one on the harmonic balancer. We decided this had to show that the problem was at the front.

Then I had to give Pete's tensioner back to him so he could drive home from work and put mine back on. With the newer tensioner it moved across all at once but I've decided this is only a symptom and not the cause of the problem so I'm going to ignore that for now.

At the moment we are thinking of modifying the power steering pump bracket to relocate the pulley closer to the engine to try and align everything better, though it looks fine by eye. We thing the power steering pump shaft is the problem, a re-condition of the pump would not fix this. So we are hoping changing the position of the pulley by about 5mm will reduce the movement of the shaft therefore overcome the problem. If that doesn't work then I'll be looking at putting a new power steering pump into it.

Strange though, drove it a bit on Sunday and it didn't move at all though. I'll have to see what happens tomorrow!

[Bennoz]

K'em hell... such a pain in the ass! Will be the fix to beat all fixes when you work it out thou!

[I8A4RE]

yeah man thats sh*t... little things like that can be so frustrating

[RallyMad]

Yep agreed, thanks for the support fellas! I just hope when I find a permanent fix it will work for the others with a similar issue if not exactly the same. Though I am getting a sense now that even though the result is the same it could be completely different reasons.

Although I do suspect that if you are continuely shredding belts on the power steering pulley I would start there, it either not lining up and therefore being a mounting problem where the pump bolts to the motor or the pulley is stuffed, which you can't change I've been told so you'd need to swap out the power steering pump. If I end up going that far it will be trying a second hand one before lumping out for a new one.

What do you think, Kempy's the only place that would sell new ones and not require me to rip out a kidney?

[RallyMad]

Time for another update.

Haven't been able to afford to change anything yet but have noticed a few things and wanted some opinions.

A few months back I put a 4pk belt ona nd over tightened it. I noticed when checking the tension from the gap between the crank pulley and the power steering pulley that I was actaully moving the power steering pulley toward my hand as I tugged ont he belt! Probably at least 3 or 4mm!

I've got the tension right now and the pulley doesn't move as much when checking the tension but does still move a few mm's. So I'm thinking the power steering pump is fudged, agreed?

It has been interesting of late though, I'm limiting myself to 4,500 or so rpm and the belt is staying where it is. I did mivec it once but was very smooth and changed up at redline and the belt didn't move.

I suspect that the belt is moving due to the play in the power steering pump when I rev the car up past 6000rpm but then just lift off the accelerator to use a little engine braking into a corner or in traffic etc.

Bit confused at the moment though cause with my driving so sedately I would have thought I would be getting some crazy mileage but I haven't?! Not sure if that just means I drive more smoothly than I though normally or if it points to a bigger problem.

On top of that the funny bearing type noise I've had for a while seems to be getting louder. really bizzare is that you can't even hear it clearly with a window down but it really bounces around the cabin when the windows are closed. Mechanic suspects it's the power steering pump so I guess I'll start with that........................just as soon as I get a job

[Bennoz]

I've changed a power steering pump before as the bearing all but collapsed. It never dropped a belt thou!

I'd just drop all the belts off to check items they run past. Perhaps have a look at the air con compressor. You can run the car with the belts off for a few minutes without harm. Why not turn the car on, turn the air con on & see if the air con compressor will turn... if the internal clutch in it is gone, they can grab & release very quickly. Ie straining the belt briefly then disengaging.

[RallyMad]

I've changed a power steering pump before as the bearing all but collapsed. It never dropped a belt thou!

I'd just drop all the belts off to check items they run past. Perhaps have a look at the air con compressor. You can run the car with the belts off for a few minutes without harm. Why not turn the car on, turn the air con on & see if the air con compressor will turn... if the internal clutch in it is gone, they can grab & release very quickly. Ie straining the belt briefly then disengaging.

Sorry mate a little lost with what you are talking about.

I have noticed the compressor is kicking in and out okay. How would I tell if it is grabbing?

Do you mean remove the belt then start the car, turn the air-con on and see if the compressor kicks in without the belt on it? How do you tell if the compressor has kicked in?

[juliaxyz]

In North America can someone copyright the performance of a magic trick? If I am doing a magic show and I can recreate a trick that has been done on TV (say by Chris Angle, David Blane, or who ever) can I be sued? If I figured it out on my own (without help from anyone involved with another magician), created the props, moves, etc. myself (again without help from anyone involved in the original production of the trick) can I be sued?

[pete_gpx]

Most random spam EVER.

[FTEvolution]

In North America can someone copyright the performance of a magic trick? If I am doing a magic show and I can recreate a trick that has been done on TV (say by Chris Angle, David Blane, or who ever) can I be sued? If I figured it out on my own (without help from anyone involved with another magician), created the props, moves, etc. myself (again without help from anyone involved in the original production of the trick) can I be sued?

THAT IS THE MOST AWESOME FIRST POST EVAR!!! AHhahHAHhHhaHh

[Gholdwayne]

im also having issues with my belts, the one on my car right now is the third one, and its already 1 groove off away from the engine, now iv ordered 2 6pk1080's from autobarn. i should think about my crank pulley now instead of buying belts all the time.

RallyMad - your problem seems like a colossal one, but im looking forward to the solution. it would be the BFG of p/s a/c belt solutions...

[Storm]

Pull off the PS/Air con belt and take it for a drive to see if you can still hear the whining. It is a bit heavy on the steering a low speeds but you can deal with it for a wee while so long as you get some decent speed up.

Bill